Female Trolls, Do they even exist? Options

[D2F]

so that leaves a few unanswered questions.

plane humans: homo sapiens sapiens
elfs: homo sapiens nobilis
trolls: homo sapiens ????
Orcs: homo sapiens ?????
dwarfs: homo sapiens ?????

The Rulebook already mentions it, but since you are too lazy to dig it up for yourself:

Trolls: homo sapiens ingentis
Orcs: homo sapiens robustus
Dwarves: homo sapiens pumolionis

[BlueMax]

No, they are not. They are born because their DNA entailed dormant genes, that needed a minimum level of magic to be activated. They are not born out of magic, they are born because of magic. That is a huge difference.

If they were born out of magic, you could not use genetic modification to simly turn yourself into a Troll or Ork or Dwarf or Elf or Human at will (as long as you have the money and connections).

This is a metaphysics debate. Neither side can win.

But both sides can lose.

Also D2F, there is a "cure" for metahumanity in DNA DOA... from 1990.... *edit*1989, I gues I got it LATE

I guess the early stuff is just unpopular.

BlueMax
/confirmed loser

[Daylen]

No, they are not. They are born because their DNA entailed dormant genes, that needed a minimum level of magic to be activated. They are not born out of magic, they are born because of magic. That is a huge difference.

If they were born out of magic, you could not use genetic modification to simly turn yourself into a Troll or Ork or Dwarf or Elf or Human at will (as long as you have the money and connections).

did you know a simple genetic modification can bring out dinosaur traits in birds? and what I more ment was magic was involved so science doesnt hold very well.

[Daylen]

http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/08/scientist...enetically.html

[pbangarth]

so that leaves a few unanswered questions.

plane humans: homo sapiens sapiens
elfs: homo sapiens nobilis
trolls: homo sapiens ????
Orcs: homo sapiens ?????
dwarfs: homo sapiens ?????

SR4A, p.66:

human: Homo sapiens sapiens
elf: H.s. nobilis
dwarf: H.s. pumilionis
orc: H.s. robustus
troll: H.s. ingentis

"all are human beings, at least according to the geneticists.
Racists say differently."

[Daylen]

The Rulebook already mentions it, but since you are too lazy to dig it up for yourself:

Trolls: homo sapiens ingentis
Orcs: homo sapiens robustus
Dwarves: homo sapiens pumolionis

or dont know where to look

or dont have the book its in.

thanks for enlightening the ignorant.

[D2F]

This is a metaphysics debate. Neither side can win.

But both sides can lose.

Also D2F, there is a "cure" for metahumanity in DNA DOA... from 1990.... *edit*1989, I gues I got it LATE

I guess the early stuff is just unpopular.

BlueMax
/confirmed loser

Naturally, there is a cure, since the subtype is merely a genetic expression of the homo sapiens species. To even further support that, check the Augmentations rules for genetic modification. You can chane your metatype with a simple procedure now.

And no, it wasn't a metaphysics debate. It was a lore debate and a "scientific" one on top of that (considering that agic is considered a science in SR). The SR universe is pretty specific as to how metahumanity came to be.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/08/scientist...enetically.html

What was that link for? Everyone knows that birds are descendants from raptors. Naturally they would have dormant raptor genes. What else would you expect?

[Karoline]

Oh, and I should also point out that Homo sapien nobilis isn't a correct scientific name for anything, because the name of a species is binomial. Thus the nobilis is just a convention for clarification, and not any indication of a new species.

Also, check your basic biology. Species is basically defined by ability to breed and produce viable offspring. Yes, most species in the same genus can breed, but they don't produce viable offspring. All metatypes and their metavarients can produce viable offspring with any other, thus making them all the same species, and thus the same race. Subspecies is basically a term that doesn't mean anything except 'To help keep things a little clear, we're going to call these things by slightly different names'. Kind of like you call a poodle a poodle and not just a dog when saying what kind of dog you have. It is still a dog, you just want to make it clear what kind of dog you have, and what it generally looks like.

[D2F]

or dont know where to look

or dont have the book its in.

thanks for enlightening the ignorant.

You don't have the Core Rulebook?

[Karoline]

You don't have the Core Rulebook?

That would explain the constant 'this is lore' followed by something that isn't lore at all.

[D2F]

That would explain the constant 'this is lore' followed by something that isn't lore at all.

Daylen is not the Lore Thumper. Shinobi Killfist is. Don't confuse the two. So far Daylen's comments have not been technically false.

[BlueMax]

Does anyone have a Copy of SR1 handy? I am at work and cannot remember what the first Priority table is called. If I was in person, I would bet anyone around it certainly was not metatype.

BlueMax

I guess everyone on is a whippersnapper

BlueMax
/me grabs his cane.

[AngelisStorm]

Geeze people, you're all pretty grumpy today.

[Daylen]

I dont have SR4. just SR3 and I couldnt find it in there.

[Karoline]

Daylen is not the Lore Thumper. Shinobi Killfist is. Don't confuse the two. So far Daylen's comments have not been technically false.

Sure they have. Among other things he's claimed that the metatypes are different races, which they (scientifically speaking) aren't. Racists will certainly say they are different races, but that doesn't make it true (Just like saying blacks were a different race didn't make that true)

[Daylen]

Daylen is not the Lore Thumper. Shinobi Killfist is. Don't confuse the two. So far Daylen's comments have not been technically false.

I was starting to get confused about what I was saying myself. I didnt think I'd been claiming any RAW in this thread. Asking about RAW yes.

[Delarn]

Does anyone have a Copy of SR1 handy? I am at work and cannot remember what the first Priority table is called. If I was in person, I would bet anyone around it certainly was not metatype.

BlueMax

Race !

[D2F]

I dont have SR4. just SR3 and I couldnt find it in there.

I owe you an apology. I just checked my copy of the SR3 Rulebook and you are riht, it's not in there. Which baffled me, so I checked my SR1 and SR2 copies and they have it in there. I have no clue why SR3 was an exception to that rule.

Anyways, please accept my apology.

Race !

That's whyt the Priority Table calls it. If you check the descrition of that table category in the actual rules, it will tell you tat "Race" in the Priority Table refers to "Metatype". If you further check the Lore background you will find the explanation of metatpy e also the specific mention that all of them are homo sapiens.

Sure they have. Among other things he's claimed that the metatypes are different races, which they (scientifically speaking) aren't. Racists will certainly say they are different races, but that doesn't make it true (Just like saying blacks were a different race didn't make that true)

Daylen merely said they were different subspecies and not different phenotypes (as I claimed). And he was (and still is) correct in that assertion.

[Daylen]

Sure they have. Among other things he's claimed that the metatypes are different races, which they (scientifically speaking) aren't. Racists will certainly say they are different races, but that doesn't make it true (Just like saying blacks were a different race didn't make that true)

are you getting mad at me because I am not being SR PC?! and are you calling me a racist or am I just being defensive?

[BlueMax]

Race !

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

Yeah, that's what I thought. But you know us old guys. Lucky if we can remember what day it is.

Thankfully, someone will be around to whitewash over Tuesday and make us all think its a glorious Friday.

BlueMax

[Daylen]

I owe you an apology. I just checked my copy of the SR3 Rulebook and you are riht, it's not in there. Which baffled me, so I checked my SR1 and SR2 copies and they have it in there. I have no clue why SR3 was an exception to that rule.

Anyways, please accept my apology.

no sweat, I just figured I was blind.

[Karoline]

are you getting mad at me because I am not being SR PC?! and are you calling me a racist or am I just being defensive?

No, I meant racists within the context of the game (like Humanis members) and racists of the past (Like KKK members). I was saying that scientifically speaking you were wrong about them being a different race, but a racist (within the game, like a Humanis member) would say that you are right and they are a different race (That needs to be purged from this earth (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

[Daylen]

I dont think I ever mentioned race... and looking back I cant find saying they were a differant species (I suggested a hypothesis that they were and was quickly disproved in RAW). the closest I came was saying they were probably a different subspecies. so why would I care what... SR racists agree with?

[Delarn]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

Yeah, that's what I thought. But you know us old guys. Lucky if we can remember what day it is.

Thankfully, someone will be around to whitewash over Tuesday and make us all think its a glorious Friday.

BlueMax

It's been ages I didn't touch my 2nd ed books but still remember my priorities ! A for (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) when I was going to make a Street sam ! and E for Race !

[D2F]

It's been ages I didn't touch my 2nd ed books but still remember my priorities ! A for (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) when I was going to make a Street sam ! and E for Race !

Hahaha! So true.
Makes me wish I could still have a million nuyen in SR4 =)