Female Trolls, Do they even exist? Options

[Roy Fokker]

it's a good effort but you may want to tone down the hourglass figures a bit. from the elf to the troll, they look like they've been wearing 1800's whalebone corsets all their life. a good example of what i think a troll female would look like would be on fable II for the xbox 360. take a female character, go max evil and corruption to get the horns. then max out height and strength. i'll try and post a pic later tonight with an example. for an ork, tone down all those markers about half. for a dwarf, don't go evil/corrupt but increase your strength to max without any increase in height. an elf is trickier because you don't get slimmer when taller, you just look less childlike.

[Redspork]

Did someone say trollstitute?!

But seriously, sorry for the sketchiness and quality. I don't draw anymore. This is probably the first thing I sat down and worked on since the swimsuit thread.

[Tomothy]

Here is a quick attempt I knocked up.

My skills are a bit rusty so I'm pretty happy with it considering I haven't drawn anything in a year or more. But that said, the horns could stand to be a bigger and I forgot about tusks (do trolls have those as well or is it just orkses?). Also, I would probably make the hips bigger next time.

Is it too giant human and not trollish enough? I might have a go at drawing a female troll's head and see if I can make it attractive and troll-like.

[Tashiro]

The thing is, male trolls, as I've seen, have started getting 'shaggy', and closer to the appearance of Earthdawn trolls. Hmm, I do have ED books, I should go through there to see if I can find female trolls. If I do, I'll scan a pic and post a link to the scan for you, so you can see what they look like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm surprised I didn't think of this sooner. It makes me wonder, though, if female trolls have started getting 'shaggy' too. Essentially, I think, their hair would become more like a mane, and they might have it on the outside of their arms. No idea.

[MYST1C]

I think trolls are always depicted too large. [...] Trolls should be around eight feet tall, but they're often drawn at more like ten to twelve.

Now, that's an interesting opinion. To me, trolls have almost always appeared too small in SR artwork. I think there is less than a handfull of pictures where trolls are, to me, depicted in the right size.
Trolls are supposed to be 2.5m (8.2ft) tall, 1.4 times the heigt of an average human (1.75m/5.7ft). Yet on most pics they are drawn as only maybe one head (about 30cm/1ft) taller than the other people around them. Note that most crowd pics also ignore that orks and elves are supposed to be notably taller than humans.

Trolls have always been problematic to me. Understandably, players consider them cool and the rules don't reflect the problems these creatures would suffer and cause based on their description. Artwork that constantly depicts them way smaller than they should be only helps ignoring these problems.
Whem I'm the GM I'm always clear and open about rigorously enforcing troll problems should a player want to play one: they don't fit in most cars, have problems in buildings, suffer massive stealth penalties (they are simply too large and heavy and noisy), have problems finding cover, cannot use equipment built for smaller metatypes (their hands are simply too large) - heck, I don't allow trolls reloading magazines unless the ammo is .50 or bigger (how do you handly 9mm ammo with fingers the size of beer cans?).

And your point about how trolls should cause much more melee damage is valid, too.

What this boils down to is that, to me, trolls are a nice idea but break the game. And they aren't much fun to play if the GM depicts their interaction with the world somewhat realistically.

[AllTheNothing]

Man, where's that 2nd or 3rd edition pic with the troll schoolgirl? Hawwwwt!

POST IT ..... hmm .... if you don't mind, naturaly.

[ElFenrir]

Hmm, I've always considered trolls around 2.3-2.5 meters on average. I also don't see them as the ten feet.

Then again, a lot of our human characters are usually tall; more around 1.8-1.9 meters. Likewise, my elf character is 2.1(quite tall for an elf, but I wouldn't say out of hand), next to a 2.3 meter tall troll(short for a troll, but far from a midget troll) , suddenly doesn't look that much shorter-20 centimeters, which is only a few inches. Hell, next to a 2.5 meter tall troll, he's about....40 cm shorter, which translates to 15 inches; just over a foot-I'd say the top of his head would be under a male troll's chin.

Now, let's take an average ork or elf(1.9 meters), and next to an average(2.4-2.5 meter) troll. This is a 50-60 cm difference, or 19-23 inches. Foot and a half to two feet. They would be somewhere around the troll's chest to his neck.

Hell, we had a friend that played a ''tanklike'' troll, about 7'6'' tall, but built like a fireplug. I don't see why it couldn't happen.

While I think they are big enough to cause some problems in ''normal'' sized places, I don't think that they are these 10 foot tall monsters I sometimes see them portrayed as.

As for trolls causing more melee damage, a 6 Strength troll is equal to a 6 Strength ork is equal to a 6 strength elf, human, or dwarf. It's just easier for them to go higher. A 7 strength troll will do less damage than a cybered 9 strength ork, elf, dwarf, or human. They should do as much damage as their Strength/training/enhancements allow, just like everyone else, IMO. [EDIT: When it comes to lifting, Body also plays a part, but Body doesn't play much of a part in actually making an attack.)

[Tashiro]

A troll, being the huge thing it is, should probably hurt a lot more hitting someone. Considering someone being hit with a billy club versus being hit by a baseball bat. Fortunately, they cover this in SR... trolls begin with 5 Strength, and can go significantly higher. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Ergo, they do more damage.

SR4 puts trolls at 2.5 m, and 300 to 350 kg. That's 8 feet, 3 inches, give or take. I've a friend who pushes almost 7 feet in height, and he has a lot of trouble with it (I'm a whole 6-foot-2, and I still bang my head from time to time). A 'tall' troll would have serious issues, even then, probably about 8' 9" or even 9'.

Now giants... those would have ... interesting... problems.

[Stahlseele]

but imagine a scottish giant with a kilt, just stalking/walking/climbing over other people ^^

[Tashiro]

but imagine a scottish giant with a kilt, just stalking/walking/climbing over other people ^^

As long as he's not going regimental.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

[pbangarth]

suffer massive stealth penalties (they are simply too large and heavy and noisy), have problems finding cover,

Clearly you have never been around a moose in the wild. 1500 lb. of muscle and bone and antler that cruise through thick brush like it wasn't there and come around a hillside and face you 10 feet away and scare the living sh....

Yeah.

[Beetle]

but imagine a scottish giant with a kilt, just stalking/walking/climbing over other people ^^

That reminds me of a Katt Williams skit on Shaquille O'Neal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUI7DuizbYI

[hyzmarca]

Did someone say trollstitute?!

But seriously, sorry for the sketchiness and quality. I don't draw anymore. This is probably the first thing I sat down and worked on since the swimsuit thread.

Why does she have a hook hand? Did she escape from a mental institution?

Here is a quick attempt I knocked up.

I assume that the featureless figure on the left is you being confronted with the fact that you must pay child support.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

Kinda to reiterate, I think the game rules support a smaller version of trolls, and the written description of the trolls' height doesn't not quite match. I would reduce the height of the troll (and the ork) in HentaiZonga's art. And also the ork and troll are shown in body builder style, so they don't exactly compare to the other races.

MYST1C, I find it interesting that you and I disagree on the depiction of the size of a troll. I wonder if that's because we each tend to notice the pictures that don't meet our expectations.

Let's look at the cover of SR4. The troll's arms are as thick as, or thicker than the torso of the human (to say nothing of the slender elf). You shoot this guy with a Ruger Super Warhawk, and he's going to feel a sting. A burst with your AK is going to make him angry. Yes, his fingers are the size of beer cans, but I don't think that's realistic at all. He looks like he'd be dual-wielding pistol-grip Panther cannons.

How about the cover of SR3? As cartoony as this painting is, I think the troll's size is better. It's hard to tell because of the angle of view, but he may actually be a little short. His legs are big, but not tree trunk thickness. His hands look really well-sized. He could wrap his hand around the head of the human, but not completely envelop it. His arms are way too thick, but maybe we can call that muscle replacement.

[Stahlseele]

well, maybe the fact that the gun in his hand is probably a full-size shotgun with a troll-modified grip, not a pistol, will bring some perspective into the SR4 Cover . . and i still want a belt-fed full auto heavy pistol! ò,Ó

[ElFenrir]

On the subject of trolls, I actually, as a GM, allow a Troll character to have less than a 5 Body and Strength if they wish. Why? Well, I mean, a 5 strength might be minimum...but, I dunno, I still have trouble imagining a troll who spent much of their life very sickly and bedridden even having that much(say someone who wants to make a troll hacker or mage of the more couch-potato variety, with Infirm, etc.) Now, in SR3, the old Infirm lowered the higher maxes; likewise, Dark King shamans used to sacrifice a physical attribute point, allowing them to go lower. If someone wants that for character purposes, I don't see why they couldn't.

(As a side note: a Shapeshifter character can shift to a metahuman form if they buy it. However, they use their Shifter stats. So a Wolf, Eagle, or even Fox shifter can take the form of a troll, but use their shifter stats; these are around a human level, and a Fox's are even lower.)

[Redspork]

Why does she have a hook hand? Did she escape from a mental institution?

You ain't lived 'til you've had a hookjob from a trollstitute, chummer.

[paws2sky]

You ain't lived 'til you've had a hookjob from a trollstitute, chummer.

And with any luck, that will be the last thing you ever experience. Otherwise, look forward to years of therapy, both physical and mental.

-paws

[BIG BAD BEESTE]

Man, where's that 2nd or 3rd edition pic with the troll schoolgirl? Hawwwwt!

3rd Edition at the back end of Target: Matrix I believe (or the other decker/Matrix related sourcebook). Basic sketch of a young troll girl clutching a copy of the Karma Sutra. Nice pose and suits the text which mentions the social side of Matrix activity, from online gaming nodes to porn sites. After all, when you can appear as anything your Icon chip programmer can imagine and all the experiences are real enough via ASIST it sure does pose a few questions about how society will evolve.

Anyhow, back on topic. Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly that there should be more art of lady trolls. However, as to what a troll (or other metatype) should appear as, well really that's all down to the actual artist and their style. OK, persoanlly, I like the original 1st Edition concepts of metatypes. Mainly because they were so original when SR first appeared all those years ago. They were so different from the standard fantasy depictions that we roleplayers had been bombarded with by AD&D, Runequest, Warhammer and all those other genres that were pre-Sixth World. Shadowrun actually had scientific, logical reasons of why these races existed and as they were "meta"human the similarity to "normal" humans was a refreshing and invigorating take. It helped that the original artwork was "realistic" rather than cartoony/anime.

Now, two decades later, with four Editions under the belt and a multitude of artists who have helped concieve and develop the Sixth World's image we have a variety of choices. As with each GM it's up to the individual to define what a troll looks like in their game. And why just one? Humans Homo sapiens today comes in many forms and colours - all of which are baiscally identified as humanoid. Different genetic ethnicities are evident as are changes wrought by cultural or environmental factors. so as long as IMG metahumans are still "human" they can incorporate any of these different traits and still exist as real characters. Why not short trolls - I've a player who has a Japanese troll who it noticably much shorter and less bulky than the normal trolls ( a predeposition based on the general shortness of Japanese human genes when compared to western Europeans).On the same line, there's no real reason as to why disease or radical environmental circumstances couldn't reduce an Attrbute to below the standard racial minimum either.

As for appearance, well I do agree that the Charisma Attribute is not wholly based upon this, otherwise with cheap cosmetic modification any character would have maxed it out for Dice Pool bonuses. But, it certainly should be a consideration to affect Charisma-linked skills use in face-to-face situations, just as a character's attire or demeaneor does. I also subscribe that not all trolls should be ugly. Not all humans are, but as I admitedly find certain physical traits attractive (and vice versa) in other humans of certain ethnicities other than my own, so should metahumans see these differences as equally valid.

Then therre is also the fact of what actually defines attractiveness to us as influenced by society at large. We are constantly bombarded and surrounded by images of models and movie stars and so told by the media that this is what is attractive and what we should all aspire to be like. Other cultures oppose the western media's interpretation - some steadfastly so. they have their own traditions and values to judge attractiveness. Sure, the Sixth World is so much closer together and influenced by the media due to the globalisation of megacorporations and the Matrix itself, but it still doesn't mean that all metahumans must drop in for cosmetic surgery. Maybe being unique and as you were born is better than something that you're not? I can easilly see that as a viewpoint to countermand the corporate style guides, heck its a rebellion in its own right. Then again, there are those who go for such outlandish bio-modifications that they are no longer really identifiable as metahuman, but are still found attractive (dare i mention catgirls here?).

[knasser]

Just to add my own two nuyen to the subject of troll size. I also find them generally portrayed as too short in most of the artwork. The size of the races and my guess at their proportions are laid out here. I used the measurements in 4e in the race descriptions. Look at the size of that troll and picture meeting him in person. All are average for their race. Note also how the ork compares to the human and you'll get a feel for just why humans find them intimidating.

My favourite troll artwork was kindly drawn for me by Dumpshocks very own Trigger and depicts my favourite character, Wiggy, the low-logic, high charisma teenage troll shaman. ("No Wiggy - don't cast fireb...<boom>"). Wiggy.

Anyway, I cast in my vote for more pictures of female trolls if they're realistic and fit the shadowrun material. But I also vote for a wider variety of ethnicities in the metahumans portrayed. 4e has been notably much better in this regard though - that Japanese or Chinese ork is one of my favourite pieces. I've never like the metavariants because it seems to deny ethnic variation in a race whilst I've always found the combination of different ethnicities with different races utterly compelling to me. A persian elven woman is one of my very favourite NPCs.

[ElFenrir]

Ok, I must say:

Wiggy is pure win. Pure, unadulterated win. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) High Charisma indeed, I like him just by seeing that picture.

[Squinky]

Anyway, I cast in my vote for more pictures of female trolls if they're realistic and fit the shadowrun material. But I also vote for a wider variety of ethnicities in the metahumans portrayed. 4e has been notably much better in this regard though - that Japanese or Chinese ork is one of my favourite pieces. I've never like the metavariants because it seems to deny ethnic variation in a race whilst I've always found the combination of different ethnicities with different races utterly compelling to me. A persian elven woman is one of my very favourite NPCs.

Funny you should mention that, but it is something that I have problems portraying in my art. Certain meta-types have basic facial features that sometimes overcome a person's ethnicity. Trolls typically need large powerful noses and strong jaws. All that leaves me with are eyes basically.....

So when drawing metahumans you have to make a call what features are more important, the meta features or the ethnic ones, least I do.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

You could always use cultural cues like traditional hairstyles and accouterments. Cheekbones and eyelashes shouldn't be overlooked as a means of establishing ethnicity either and while the tusks can make identification of lips difficult, you can still use lip thickness to your advantage.
Cedarceed's tutorials have pretty good descriptions of facial features, though the sketches are a little rough in places. Though I'm not sure if there is anyone who frequents deviant art who hasn't already seen them.

[Neraph]

Where in 4th edition does it say trolls have tusks, strong jaws, and large noses? My reading says "pronounced lower canines," "dermal bone deposits that makes their skin look rough," "slightly enlongated arms," and "horns."

It should be noted that those horns don't have a damage code, so in my mind that means they're much smaller, al la Darth Maul.

EDIT: Upcoming pics myself, so I'm not all just talk.

[raben-aas]

Biggest problem I have with female orcs and esp. trolls is that most of the time they look like a somewhat muscular norm girl that got copied to a larger size.

I just did a small sketch after reading this thread (f orc left, f troll right) that shows more of tha "earthy" quality esp. trolls should have (they have a very strong body frame that even their huge muscles almost can't uphold).

http://rabenwelten.wordpress.com/files/200...y_raben-aas.jpg

Maybe I'll find the time to do a "real" pic of a female troll somewhere in the future.

Until that time, there's still my old female quasi-troll (more like a norse valkyrie/giant) here: http://raben-aas.deviantart.com/art/Shadow...Cover-102082995 and my radical orc grrl here: http://raben-aas.deviantart.com/art/Shadow...c-Girl-99583689