Get behind Satan!, Why might crosses stop vampires? Options

[Daddy's Litt...]

There are a lot of reasons found in SR to explain the mythological powers of vampires and their weaknesses, but was there ever a reason given for crosses?

[Ancient History]

Historically, it's been a psychological allergy to holy symbols (i.e. the vampire believes the myth).

[Stahlseele]

an atheist vampire would scoff at you and declare killing you ripe for darwin award *snickers*
and in SR this Cross-Stuff does not work, does it?
if the crosses ain't made of wood or whatever their allergen is?

[The Jake]

I'd like to know why vampires suddenly are signficantly weaker as of SR4. No enhanced attribute(strength) wtf man??

- J.

[Ancient History]

Put it this way: what the bulk of people know about vampires can be summed up in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. If someone with that complete misinformation suddenly becomes a vampire - which is a fairly traumatic experience - they start to apply the only thing they know about a similar condition to their own. Hence, you can get vampires in SR that develop a strong aversion to crosses - not necessarily because they're religious, but because they're a little screwy in the head and they think that vampires are repelled by crosses. This can be represented by an Allergy negative quality (mainly because we nixed the Phobia flaw as being essentially identical to Allergy in most respects).

[IceKatze]

hi hi

There are some well thought out physical reasons for why a vampire would be affected by crosses. One of the better ones I've read involves their neural structure as adapted for a predator. The idea is that vampires brains give them an advantage in smarts because their visual cortex is more developed and can process a lot more information then people.

In theory they can comprehend both aspects of a Necker Cube at the same time. They can hold simultaneous multiple worldviews, so rather then having to think things out step by step, they just see them in their entirety without having to really think about it.

The problem with crosses is due to the way their visual cortex processes horizontal and vertical threads of information, and like a human child having seizures from watching bright fast moving flashy anime, a vampire risks seizures if intersecting right angles cover large portions of their visual field because it puts their brain in a sort of feedback loop.

Ideas by Peter Watts in Blindsight

[Snow_Fox]

I read in one book that a Vampire would run away from someone weilding a cross because he didn't like religous fanatics. sort of "Anyone who's first thought when faced by a monster is to wave around a holy symbol is too crazy to bother with."

[crash2029]

Reality is shaped by the perceptions of those bound by it.

[Chrysalis]

Maybe vampires are allergic to scripture, silver, feared the image of christ, or maybe because crosses were often large weighing at over 20kgs so you had to be built like an ox to wield one as a weapon.

Maybe it is part of the mark of Cain, the fear of God and his power over men.

[HappyDaze]

I'd like to know why vampires suddenly are signficantly weaker as of SR4. No enhanced attribute(strength) wtf man??

Look under the description of Essence Drain (SR4, page 288):

If pressed, a critter that has drained Essence within the past hour can siphon the stolen life force into other attributes, including (and often especially) Magic. Every 2 points of drained Essence temporarily boosts one Physical or Mental attribute, or Magic, by +1. Only one attribute may be boosted at any time. This attribute boosts wears off after 12 hours, and half the Essence points used to fuel the boost are lost.

While Magic is noted as popular, Strength can always be used for the hands-on vampire.

[AllTheNothing]

There are a lot of reasons found in SR to explain the mythological powers of vampires and their weaknesses, but was there ever a reason given for crosses?

Ok I know that I'm gonna get stoned for this but.......... maybe it's that they fear ending up on Damien Knight drecklist by getting mixed with a Cross (runs for cover).

I think that the exceptionaly linear answer of Ancient History is the best way to handle the issue; another reason is that religious simbols made of plastic could be considered blasfeme so crosses are likely to be made of wood.

[pbangarth]

In theory they can comprehend both aspects of a Necker Cube at the same time. They can hold simultaneous multiple worldviews, so rather then having to think things out step by step, they just see them in their entirety without having to really think about it.

Oh... this is rare? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Isn't there some psychological term for the ability to hold contradictory world views simultaneously? I can't think of it at the moment.

[Wounded Ronin]

Battery by crucifix is funny.

Then, when the demons had completed their possession, the bodies, in a fashion horrible to behold, were raised up from the castle floor, the one with ravelled entrails hanging from its wide wounds, the other with a head that dropped forward loosely on its bosom. Then, animated by their devils, the cadavers took up the crosses of hornbeam that had been dropped by Stephane and Bernard; and using the crosses for bludgeons, they drove the monks in ignominious flight from the castle, amid a loud, tempestuous howling of infernal laughter from the dwarf and his necromantic crew. And the nude corpse of Le Loupgarou and the robed cadaver of Theophile followed them far on the chasm-riven slopes below Ylourgne, striking great blows with the crosses, so that the backs of the two Cistercians were become a mass of bloody bruises.

http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short...sus-of-ylourgne

[hobgoblin]

I read in one book that a Vampire would run away from someone weilding a cross because he didn't like religous fanatics. sort of "Anyone who's first thought when faced by a monster is to wave around a holy symbol is too crazy to bother with."

dont need to be a vampire to think that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[hobgoblin]

hi hi

There are some well thought out physical reasons for why a vampire would be affected by crosses. One of the better ones I've read involves their neural structure as adapted for a predator. The idea is that vampires brains give them an advantage in smarts because their visual cortex is more developed and can process a lot more information then people.

In theory they can comprehend both aspects of a Necker Cube at the same time. They can hold simultaneous multiple worldviews, so rather then having to think things out step by step, they just see them in their entirety without having to really think about it.

The problem with crosses is due to the way their visual cortex processes horizontal and vertical threads of information, and like a human child having seizures from watching bright fast moving flashy anime, a vampire risks seizures if intersecting right angles cover large portions of their visual field because it puts their brain in a sort of feedback loop.

Ideas by Peter Watts in Blindsight

i got to say, that book went straight over my head. and its not often i get that feel from a sci-fi text these days...

[hobgoblin]

Look under the description of Essence Drain (SR4, page 288):

While Magic is noted as popular, Strength can always be used for the hands-on vampire.

its at least toned down from earlier editions, where they acted more like spirits, and got a stat bonus on all stats ewual to their essence pool.

i guess that would have made them walking munchkin fuel in sr4...

[Heath Robinson]

Aren't crosses also the traditional form of theurgist Foci and Fetishes? I mean, sure, 1% of the population is awakened but the kind of person who's going to show no fear in front of an undead creature of the night whilst waving a cross around likely has a reason. Mundanes would be sliging around guns. An awakened person will be using a Focus or Fetish.

I'm pretty sure that Vampires don't want to step too close to a Fetish wielding Awakened when a F10 Death Touch only has 3P drain.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

hobgoblin: When I read it, I had to stop frequently to try to understand some of the more complex concepts and it did break up the flow of the story, but I have a feeling that when it fades from recent memory, I'll be able to go back and read through it more smoothly.

Heath: That is a really good idea, it is something that rarely gets exploited in the games I play.

[Aiolos Turin]

Or solely based on spiritual good/evil effects.

Leaving spirituality out of shadowrun is like leaving Machines, Magic, Cyberpunk, or Corporations.

Runner's Companion (or was it SR4 Core book?) states that because they're so connected with the Awakening (or some other reason, but primarily spiritual/metaphysical) they are extra sensitive to what they believe. So if a vampire believes crosses hurt them, then crosses hurt them.

Also, an atheist vampire isn't entirely void of being affected by crosses. Depending on his psychology and social influences, there may be a lot of unsurity and doubt in his heart as to what the truth is, thus regardless of his resistance- he is still affected by the cross because on a very subconscious level, he has heard and even SEEN others be burned by crosses.

Vampires, like any other metatype, are not demi-gods whose willpower is so high they can just say "Oh, I dont believe it'll hurt me." and have their metaphysical spirits, subconscious, inner-beliefs, or whatever not say otherwise.

It wouldnt be the first time that someone's mind and conscious, although believing in one thing- failed to be the deciding factor in action because their subconscious or internal mechanisms were more powerful- even when they didnt think or feel so. Psychology goes more deep than "I dont believe in crosses, thus it cant hurt me!" ESPECIALLY if you have actually SEEN other vampires be burned by crosses. That alone is enough to force everyone but the most heavy of genius vampires to, regardless of their belief, internally always believe it will burn them. What you see is what you get. Hard to deny what you've seen in person! Especially atheists, who will rely more on what they have seen with their physical eyes (vampries being burned by crosses) over what they have heard from others (that it wont effect them if they dont believe). They are actually more prone IMO to being burned by crosses, because the visual reality will always outweigh their faith (thoughts, beliefs, and opinions) and thus make it VERY hard for them to stop being burned by the crosses without seeing it firsthand. While a vampire of faith only need to believe that something happened that caused them to become invulnerable to crosses.

Would be quite hilarious if all the cross-burned vampires were atheists and all the ones immune were of a faith, lol. Not far from sensible and realistic either, since it is all based on faith in the first place. Since faith is the deciding factor of whether or not you get burned, those of faith will have a better chance of becoming immune, as those without faith are more likely to stick with what theyve seen firsthand and are harder to move (it burns!!!!!) Doubt is the primary player here, and any real writer would have deep psychology in each character, so if one isnt entirely sure they wont be burned, the factors will outweigh them.

I mean, it's not like Neo succeeded on the first jump. He fell straight down, just like everyone else. He was only free from the limits of the Matrix when he finally achieved total faith. It's not so easy for someone who has a hard time believing in something more than the rules of the Matrix.

[Dr Funfrock]

Isn't there some psychological term for the ability to hold contradictory world views simultaneously? I can't think of it at the moment.

Big Brother is deeply disturbed that you have not yet mastered the art of doublethink, comrade.

The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them....To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies — all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.

[BookWyrm]

Reality is shaped by the perceptions of those bound by it.

Reminds me of a certain quote from the comic series Maximortal: R=BxC2 (Reality equals Belief times Consciousness squared).

[The Jake]

Look under the description of Essence Drain (SR4, page 288):

While Magic is noted as popular, Strength can always be used for the hands-on vampire.

I'm well aware of the rules concerning Essence Loss. Granted this is an improvement but still, the way they worked previously I thought was fine.

I presume this change is more to allow players to play a vampire more than anything else... ?

- J.

[TheOOB]

Well, vampires did exist before in the fourth world, it stands to reason some of the rumors may have been correct.

I see it as mostly a psychological thing, how I run things is that vampires are naturally afraid of true faith. Some punk wearing a cross for decoration wouldn't affect a vampire, but someone who belives in the religion and presents a symbol of it will, regardless of religion.

Alternatively you can have the vampire affected by any symbol of their faith in life. Agnostics and atheists are affected by all signs.

Just a side note, the current character I am playing is a black mage with the seductress mentor spirit, and the mentor spirit is repelled by prominent displays of religion and faith, which manifests as a Mild Allergy(Religion) on my character.

[Stahlseele]

hmm . . where would those beliefs come from anyway?
wasn't the 4th world before church?

[hobgoblin]

dont know where i have it from, but i recall something about the symbol itself being worthless unless the person presenting it had a strong belief in it.

that is, a priest or commoner, it did not matter, nor that it was only two sticks, if the person holding truely believed, then it works.