Hacker vs Technomancer, A question about character differences Options

[Dark Talon]

Okay, so I'm used to playing the magical end of the spectrum and I'm thinking about rolling out a character that is more cyberized. Since I've played mostly combat character, I decided to go for more of a support role. I really enjoy the fact that you can do so much with hacking and computers in shadowrun that I want to give it a try.

So my question is, from a support role, whats the real difference, advantage versus disadvantage of a non-technomancer hacker versus a technomancer?

Alternatively, I know very little about cyber implants and the matrix, I'm starting to read up on it now, but its slow going. Can anyone provide any tips/things to know when building my first hacker character?

[Tycho]

Hacker:

Pro:
- really good right at the beginning
- all rounder: can make all the matrix stuff relative good
- less Karma expensive, most upgrades are 'ware, programs and hardware.
- low BP cost, works well with a secondary concept, like a combat hacker or a hacker/housebreaker

Contra:
- is maxed out really quick, if you put all Karma and money in hacking skills and gear.
- is capped so you can't get better at some point.


Technomancer:

Pro:
- the sky is the limit. no caps, if you have tons of karma
- specialist, he is a specialist in a small field of the matrix at which he is good, in the rest a hacker is likely better.
- Sprites
- there are some cool Echos, if you have the karma

Contra:
- everything is karma related: Technomancer are a big huge karma hole.
- with 400BP your are really weak at start
- you even will have problems to build the technomancer, if you don't concentrate only on the hacking stuff (which means low physical attr, barely skills for outside the matrix
- yust to get rid of you lack of physical Attr and useful non matrix skills, you need around 50-100Karma. A Hacker with this much karma has probably maxed out his Matrix skills at this karma level.


Conclusion:
If you playing more often, and you like to play a character very long and like to sie a long character development, you should use a Technomancer, but in the start he will not be able to do the same stuff like a hacker. At some point (after lots of karma) he will be better than a hacker can be anyway. If you don't play that often, and you don't want to stick entirely to the matrix, take a hacker. Because they are good from the start and don't need much karma to get better, you can take other skills and your hacker can also be a face, a fighter, a housebreaker, a doctor or whatever you like him to be to support you teammates even outside the matrix.

cya
Tycho

[Medicineman]

If You're used to Mages, try the Technomancer.
Sprites are interesting and Cool
everything else,like Tycho said

with a short Dance
Medicineman

[Tiger Eyes]

I'll echo that. If you like playing the Awakened, play an Emergent. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You can do amazing things in the Matrix with sprites, and the types of echos you can get can really make a unique character. I'll disagree that a beginning TM isn't as good in the Matrix as a beginning hacker, simply because even at the beginning, you have sprites and can thread. With Assist Operation and threading, you can hack anything. Your base dicepools will likely be smaller, but you can use your TM abilities and sprites to boost them up for short periods of time beyond what a hacker can do.

Outside the Matrix, though, the hacker will be more well rounded. (Just like the Street Sam will be more well rounded than the Mage, generally--having to buy a entire different group of skills really kills your "well roundedness") If you want a character that is more than a Matrix God to start, then a hacker is probably the way to go.

Also, if you want to play someone with cyberware, play a hacker. Cyberware is worse to TMs than to mages, IMO.

Oh, and I forgot. If you are really just a support person, the benefits of using Machine Sprites + Diagnostics for the rest of your team cannot be overstated. My fellow players would revolt if I suddenly decided to play anything but a TM; they've gotten addicted to Machine Sprites. Even without a first aid skill, you can be a great medic with a Medkit rating 6 + a rating 6 Machine sprite and a high logic, for example.

[Jaid]

yeah, the main difference between hackers and TMs at chargen (assuming a well-designed TM) is that the TM will be very squishy in the meat, whereas a hacker doesn't necessarily have to be (but may still be, if for some reason you feel like it).

[KCKitsune]

yeah, the main difference between hackers and TMs at chargen (assuming a well-designed TM) is that the TM will be very squishy in the meat, whereas a hacker doesn't necessarily have to be (but may still be, if for some reason you feel like it).

You don't have be squishy in the meat because you can get 'Ware. Sure it reduces your Resonance, but hey it's worth it in the long run. Just have be VERY careful on what 'ware you get.

[Cain]

I'll disagree that a beginning TM isn't as good in the Matrix as a beginning hacker, simply because even at the beginning, you have sprites and can thread.

Threading is overrated. Even with a supposed errata I heard of, the sustaining penalty hurts you. Yes, you can get up to one or two really huge dice pools; but every other one is going to suffer in comparison to a good decker.

The best use I've seen is a dedicated sprite summoner. Sprites are in many ways more powerful than their summoners, so it's often better to summon a horde of them and have them do the heavy work for you.

[The Jake]

Hacker:

Pro:
- really good right at the beginning
- all rounder: can make all the matrix stuff relative good
- less Karma expensive, most upgrades are 'ware, programs and hardware.
- low BP cost, works well with a secondary concept, like a combat hacker or a hacker/housebreaker

Contra:
- is maxed out really quick, if you put all Karma and money in hacking skills and gear.
- is capped so you can't get better at some point.


Technomancer:

Pro:
- the sky is the limit. no caps, if you have tons of karma
- specialist, he is a specialist in a small field of the matrix at which he is good, in the rest a hacker is likely better.
- Sprites
- there are some cool Echos, if you have the karma

Contra:
- everything is karma related: Technomancer are a big huge karma hole.
- with 400BP your are really weak at start
- you even will have problems to build the technomancer, if you don't concentrate only on the hacking stuff (which means low physical attr, barely skills for outside the matrix
- yust to get rid of you lack of physical Attr and useful non matrix skills, you need around 50-100Karma. A Hacker with this much karma has probably maxed out his Matrix skills at this karma level.


Conclusion:
If you playing more often, and you like to play a character very long and like to sie a long character development, you should use a Technomancer, but in the start he will not be able to do the same stuff like a hacker. At some point (after lots of karma) he will be better than a hacker can be anyway. If you don't play that often, and you don't want to stick entirely to the matrix, take a hacker. Because they are good from the start and don't need much karma to get better, you can take other skills and your hacker can also be a face, a fighter, a housebreaker, a doctor or whatever you like him to be to support you teammates even outside the matrix.

cya
Tycho

How does Adept/Cyber-Hackers fit in with this? They seem to be the best of both worlds....

Cyber for the easy upgrades, Magic for the situations where is no equivalent, Initiate to get increased Hacking dicepools?

- J.

[Jaid]

You don't have be squishy in the meat because you can get 'Ware. Sure it reduces your Resonance, but hey it's worth it in the long run. Just have be VERY careful on what 'ware you get.

no, it isn't. resonance is all-important for a technomancer. it limits what your sprites can be, it limits what your CFs can be, it affects your fading, it affects your threading, it affects your compiling and registering. losing resonance sucks, big time. you really do need your resonance to be as high as you can possibly get it as a TM. it's one of the few things it's actually worth it to max out in chargen rather than soft-maxing for reasons other than "it fits the concept"

a mage with magic 4 can still be powerful. a TM with resonance 4 is going to be barely able to outperform a hacker in the TM's current area of specialty on a good day, never mind being a truly effective TM. it is true that eventually, in the really long term (ie as karma approaches infinity) the cybered technomancer is a viable (and indeed, probably the best) choice. but that isn't really applicable to most games i've ever seen.

[Dark Talon]

I am curious about the adept hacker, because our group's current hacker is one, but at the same time I would want to do something different because of this.

So, one of the thing that frustrated me as an adept was how difficult it was to come across more adept powers. I suppose I should have broken down at some point and gotten some cyberware, but the original concept (he was a 3rd edition convert) had bio-rejection.

So does a hacker really plateau that early? Or is that just in comparison with overpowered technomancers? I want to be able to do some pretty trick/crazy things. Our AI just recently hacked Tokyo's orbiting satellite, and while I wouldn't necessarily go that crazy, we did have a need to hack the tokyo traffic navigation grid to rescue one of our guys from a police prison transport.

I guess my question now is: Is it impossible for a hacker to, down the road, keep up with technomancers, or does it just become difficult? I feel like i've hit a wall with my adept where I can't get more powerful without cyberware and the magical boosts are just flubbing expensive.

[Cain]

How does Adept/Cyber-Hackers fit in with this? They seem to be the best of both worlds....

Cyber for the easy upgrades, Magic for the situations where is no equivalent, Initiate to get increased Hacking dicepools?

Cyber+Adept decker eats normal decker for breakfast, unless normal decker gets a simsense accelerator. Five IP's evens things out quite a bit.

I guess my question now is: Is it impossible for a hacker to, down the road, keep up with technomancers, or does it just become difficult? I feel like i've hit a wall with my adept where I can't get more powerful without cyberware and the magical boosts are just flubbing expensive.

Pre-Unwired, someone (I want to say Frank Trollman) calculated the karma point at which an otaku would beat a decker. IIRC, they pulled ahead somewhere around 500 karma. Now, Unwired changes this equasion dramatically, but the point is that it takes a disgusting amount of karma for an otaku to exceed a decker. Maybe more than you'll see in the course of a normal campaign.

[Matsci]

Hacks tend to Top of quickly. Once you have your Rating 6 programs, your 6-7 ranks in a skill, hot-sim, a Response Enhancer, Optimization, a Simsense booster,a simsense accelerator, Rating 2 Encphalon, PuSHeD, and Neocortical Neural Amplifier Nanites, the Mundane hacked has reached the maximum possible die pool, of about 21-22.

A starting Technomancer, with the same skills, can thread up rating 12 programs, and sling about 20 dice, if only for a few turns. They are horribly dependent on sprites to maintain this, though.

[Ryu]

Pre-Unwired, someone (I want to say Frank Trollman) calculated the karma point at which an otaku would beat a decker. IIRC, they pulled ahead somewhere around 500 karma. Now, Unwired changes this equasion dramatically, but the point is that it takes a disgusting amount of karma for an otaku to exceed a decker. Maybe more than you'll see in the course of a normal campaign.

A TM can beat the best possible hacker after 400 BP chargen. Any TM should beat the actually likely hacker builds of equal BP/karma level. Despite the rather central role Stealth plays for hacking, you still don´t assign enough value to double-digit stealth ratings.

I very much doubt the karma math is from Frank, unless he was counting from 0 karma and therefore pulled it off with the equivalent of less than 400 BP.

[Cain]

A TM can beat the best possible hacker after 400 BP chargen. Any TM should beat the actually likely hacker builds of equal BP/karma level. Despite the rather central role Stealth plays for hacking, you still don´t assign enough value to double-digit stealth ratings.

An otaku can get *one* dice pool to disgusting levels. That super-high stealth does you no good when you don't have a decent Exploit CF ready to go, and threading won't cut it. OTOH, the decker will have good all-round dice pools, allowing them to be good at using the Matrix, while the otaku is only good at not getting noticed.

Being invisible is fine and dandy, but unless you can actually do something, you're just going to be sitting there.

And that's not including many of the decker-only tricks, such as a botnet swarm. A decker can field more Agent Smiths than an otaku can field spirites; a few dozen Agent Smiths will mow over just about any sprite you care to name.

[Ryu]

Incorrect again. A TM can get one dicepool at a time to competent hacker levels, even while boosting stealth. I have given you the math in the past, multiple times. A TM can also use botnets just fine.

[InfinityzeN]

In the short term, a well build Adept/Hacker is the way to go. Techies will outperform them in the passive rating (things passed on just Program rating) area and their specialty. However, for all around goodness without the risk of making your head go *POOF*, the A/H works.

Each has their own unique feel in play. Go with what style feels best to you.

[Jaid]

the karma math is from frank, but it did not take into account either threading or using sprites to boost your CFs.

or, in other words, it basically ignored two of the most important parts of being a TM, and therefore wasn't a very valid point.

[Tiger Eyes]

I guess my question now is: Is it impossible for a hacker to, down the road, keep up with technomancers, or does it just become difficult? I feel like i've hit a wall with my adept where I can't get more powerful without cyberware and the magical boosts are just flubbing expensive.

IMO, a hacker shouldn't "try" to keep up with a technomancer. That's like saying a street sam should "try" to keep up with the combat mage. What I've seen in my games, and from my own experience, is that a starting hacker is likely to be as good a hacker as they ever really need to be. Buy up all your programs to 6 and your commlink to 6 as soon as you have the nuyen. Then diversify, learn some new skills, buff up your attributes, learn to knit, something. The TM is going to be dumping all their karma (and begging for more) into submerging and getting new echos. A hacker can become a multi-use character. An adept can get some awesome adept abilities to make them more useful.

Chances are, if you've hit the "wall" you're probably one of the best hackers out there, elite, running circles around those GOD hackers and terrifying your enemies. Do you really need a few more dice in that dice pool? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

(In my current game, the happiest person is the mundane street sam. While everyone else is hoarding karma trying to initiate or submerge once again, she's saying, "hmm, what new skill should I learn this week? Only 4 karma to learn how to fly a plane? Great!")

[Cain]

Incorrect again. A TM can get one dicepool at a time to competent hacker levels, even while boosting stealth. I have given you the math in the past, multiple times. A TM can also use botnets just fine.

So, you can get one huge dice pool, and one competent one. I don't see where this contradicts anything I've said. If anything, it highlights the fact that the otaku's Matrix dice pools are going to be a lot smaller.

[InfinityzeN]

One thing to do is to ask your GM if they are using the "Using Attributes" optional rule, Unwired Page 39. If they are, don't bother with a TM if you want to be the dice pool twinker of twink'twink land. With that rule, TMs are about even in dice with Hackers (a little behind if the Hacker takes some good bio and cyber).

[Magus]

But TM don't use attributes They use resonance.

[InfinityzeN]

But TM don't use attributes They use resonance.

Only for Threading, Compiling Sprites, etc.

For hacking test, they roll Skill + Pro... Complex Form, the same as a Hacker. So for those test with that optional rule they get changed to Logic + Skill (Cap: Complex Form). They can get a monster high cap compared to a Hacker, but not really any more dice. Sprite "Assist Operation" just adds to the Complex Forms rating.

I like this optional rule. It gives TM a lower dice pool in the long run compared to Hackers, but with a higher Max Hit Cap. It also prevents the 'Idiot Savant Hacker' with a Logic of 1 (try it, you can get his pools just as high as a Logic 6 hacker for Matrix task).

TMs still get twinkishly high Matrix Perception and passive totals (Complex Form: Stealth at 12?!).

[Ryu]

the karma math is from frank, but it did not take into account either threading or using sprites to boost your CFs.

or, in other words, it basically ignored two of the most important parts of being a TM, and therefore wasn't a very valid point.

Thanks! Yeah, that wouldn´t be valid at all.

[Ryu]

One thing to do is to ask your GM if they are using the "Using Attributes" optional rule, Unwired Page 39. If they are, don't bother with a TM if you want to be the dice pool twinker of twink'twink land. With that rule, TMs are about even in dice with Hackers (a little behind if the Hacker takes some good bio and cyber).

The other way around. You are then capped at (program/CF rating hits), large pools loose any meaning with a program cap of 6.

If you use that rule, you play a TM. Extended program caps are the win. Thread stealth and the used CF for +3, move your cap on hits to 8, increase both pools by 1. Add Assist Operation to make the cap on hits meaningless, and to move your expected hits above the hackers cap.

(It is actually the same trick that works without the optional rule, it just works much better.)

[InfinityzeN]

Ryu, you fail to realize that with that optional rule, TM won't be getting the crazy large dice pools. 18 dice averages out to 6 hits. It takes almost everything to get 18+ dice from Logic + Skill + Modifiers. TM will have a harder time getting to that number then Hackers because Hackers can take Cyber/Bio ware that boost their pools and Logic. So, on average the Hacker will be rolling more dice then the TM (potentially 3 or more dice, increasing that to 6 or more with a Adept/Hacker).

The net effect will be that really good hackers tend to come out with ~6 hits (without spending Edge) on most rolls. TM on the other hand, will have a slightly lower average number of hits, but will be all over the board with actual hits per roll.