Hacker vs Technomancer, A question about character differences Options

[Ryu]

Ooops. Yep, not as much dice for the TM. Still, hackers loose out due to needing two tests to gain even security access on relevant nodes, while the TM can push Stealth to 13.

[InfinityzeN]

Yep. I did HR that spending Edge on a capped roll increases the cap by Edge.

Also, I see a whole lot less "On the Fly" hacking against powerful Nodes, which is a good thing. I don't care how good a hacker you are, you shouldn't be able to walk up to a Rating 6 Node running Analyze 6 and make it cry "Your my DADDY!" in less than 3 seconds.

[Ryu]

Augmented TM, Resonance 6 (5), Cerebral Booster 3, Trauma Damper, Sourceror.

Threading for +4 (buying three hits against fading) on Stealth and Exploit, adding a rating 3 Assist Operation (Stealth) service. Stealth 13, your rating 6 node will need three tests.

Logic 5[8] + Hacking 6 (Exploit +2) + Hot-Sim + Black hat - Threading mod = 18 dice for the TM, with a hit cap of 9, times two. Damn good odds of gaining admin on such a node, and without risk. Add a rating 7 Probability Distribution service, for enhancing your own dp, and you are set.

[InfinityzeN]

Just remember that there is nothing stopping a Hacker from writing a program up to rating 12 (with Optimization) except the GM telling them they can't and time. Unwired list no caps for rating. If my players wanted to spend all their downtime working on this I would let them.

Hell, military hardware goes up to 10. With a max Optimized program, that could be a rating 16. I wouldn't let my players get a hold of this level, but it is possible.

[Ryu]

I do not consider hackers underpowered. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[InfinityzeN]

True dat. Last time I played, I was a Street Sammy who built himself up into a decent hacker over the course of the game. He was never as good as a pure starting hacker, but he could pull some nasty stuff. Operated mostly in AR, using his 3IP passes to shoot with the odd hacking action thrown in when needed. Lotta fun actually.

[JoelHalpern]

actually, it is an interesting question what the rules ought to be for writing / getting programs above rating 6. With the Programming Environment halving time, the software tools adding dice, and the rules clarifications that slef-written software does not degrade, writing programs becomes a half-way reasonable option.

With optimization, it does seem that one could have programs (other than firewall, which was already defined to be unlimitted) at ratings higher than 6.
The seem to indicate that you can only buy things up to six.

Hence, I can understand a GM introducing special rules for going past 6. Otherwise, 7 is really not much harder than 6 to develop, and one is left to ask why the corps don't use higher rated software on most of their systems.
Also, if it is the same difficulty to write, it should not be super-linearly more expensive to get a rating 7, optimize 3 than a rating 6 optimize 3 program. (The costs have a jump at 4, so maybe there are jumps at 7 and 10?) But the book seems to not allow such purchases.

Would folks allow players to write their own? Would they allow purchase?
The question of getting at programs in the higher ratings range is clearly important if the hackers are to be competitive with the TMs and AIs. (Granted, as an earlier poster said, maybe they are not supposed to be competitive, but ...)

Yours,
Joel Halpern

PS: At the high end, stealth trumps analyze, since each pt of stealth needs at least two points of analyze/stealth to have a small chance of detecting the hacker, and more points to maintain a good chance. A TM with an effective stealth of 12 is effectively undetectable by a computer / IC during a slow breaking or thereafter, since 18 dice (analyze 6, firewall 12) has a tiny chance of 12 successes (3 standard deviations, actually < 0.4%)

[Warlordtheft]

Hey were are the rules for going above six in hacking programs? I always thought that rating 6 was the top of the line.....just going by the ratings descriptions in the BBB.

The other point I would make is that I am using the program rating limiting the number of successes rater than adding dice (unwired alternate rules). Is anybody else using it/tried it?

[Matsci]

Hey were are the rules for going above six in hacking programs? I always thought that rating 6 was the top of the line.....just going by the ratings descriptions in the BBB.

The other point I would make is that I am using the program rating limiting the number of successes rater than adding dice (unwired alternate rules). Is anybody else using it/tried it?

I think it's a house rule. I personally allow hacks to program up to their Skill in programs, so it takes a real prodigy to get rating 7 programs

[Cain]

Hey were are the rules for going above six in hacking programs? I always thought that rating 6 was the top of the line.....just going by the ratings descriptions in the BBB.

According to page 240, there's no upper limit to the rating of a program. However, Response chips are restricted to 6, so anything above a 7 is just going to be a waste. Firewall is the only exception.

[Matsci]

According to page 240, there's no upper limit to the rating of a program. However, Response chips are restricted to 6, so anything above a 7 is just going to be a waste. Firewall is the only exception.

Optimization Program option, from Unwired.

[Draco18s]

[img]http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~mmj29/temp/hackingMath.png[/img]

Do the math:
Sum the area under the curves.

(Edit: images disabled? Bugger, have a link)

[Matsci]

[img]http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~mmj29/temp/hackingMath.png[/img]

Do the math:
Sum the area under the curves.

(Edit: images disabled? Bugger, have a link)

I can't. There is no scale on the X- Axis

That doesn't seem to take into account sprites. Assist Operation for the Win.

[Draco18s]

What's the sprite doing? In my (very) short stint with a technomancer and helping another player with his (very) short stint with one I never figured out exactly how to use sprites most effectively. Of course, my character's concept was such that he didn't yet know he could make them, plus a few other concept based CF choices for flavor that ended up inadvertently making the character less than useless. Interestingly the game died before the character did. To be fair, the concept was much more suited to a different game (a space opera game where AIs were taking over) and as such the idea of "running pell mell from the AIs" meant that he didn't bother with Stealth. Which is more than essential in a normal game. Character was also more of a e-Ghost than a technomancer, but because of the concept the GM knew exactly what had happened to the meat bod, so I was using TM rules and not awakened AI rules.

And the X-scale doesn't matter. "Max programs available in the book" just occurs somewhere to the right of where the TM has 0 dice, at which point the area under the line with always be smaller than the Hacker's.

[Matsci]

What's the sprite doing? In my (very) short stint with a technomancer and helping another player with his (very) short stint with one I never figured out exactly how to use sprites most effectively. Of course, my character's concept was such that he didn't yet know he could make them, plus a few other concept based CF choices for flavor that ended up inadvertently making the character less than useless. Interestingly the game died before the character did. To be fair, the concept was much more suited to a different game (a space opera game where AIs were taking over) and as such the idea of "running pell mell from the AIs" meant that he didn't bother with Stealth. Which is more than essential in a normal game. Character was also more of a e-Ghost than a technomancer, but because of the concept the GM knew exactly what had happened to the meat bod, so I was using TM rules and not awakened AI rules.

And the X-scale doesn't matter. "Max programs available in the book" just occurs somewhere to the right of where the TM has 0 dice, at which point the area under the line with always be smaller than the Hacker's.

This is How you use spites

Assist Operation: A registered sprite can add its rating to any single complex form used by the technomancer. Th is assistance lasts for a maximum number of Combat Turns equal to the sprite’s rating; a Rating 3 sprite, for example, can add 3 dice to the technomancer’s Armor complex form for a maximum of 3 Combat Turns.

Then you can run multiple programs at 9-12.

[Draco18s]

Alright, I will alter the graph then. How many programs at 9-12? How many above? How many below?

It still doesn't matter, as the Hacker line sits at 21, so unless the TM can either use far more total programs (impossible as there are a limited number of them, of which all are available to the hacker) than the hacker or can use a significant number over 21 dice (one at 30 for every one at 12, one at 39 for two at 12, one at 33 for one at 9, one at 45 for two at 9) then there's simply no way he could ever have the same average use as a hacker.

Edit: new image, to show my point:

http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~mmj29/temp/hackingMath2.png

It doesn't matter how much you screw with the line that's below the average threshold needed to out-do a hacker, you're turning an area of 40 into an area of 60 when you're up against an area of 200. Pocket change.

[Ryu]

Am I missing something again?

There is a limited number of programs where the dicepool is critical, and the TM will boost whatever is currently needed.

[Dark Talon]

Thanks for the input everyone! I think I'm gonna go with a straight up hacker once I get through the hugel amount of reading I need to do to even understand how to play one. My adept has pretty much stayed out of cyber shit since 4th edition came out. I understand what to tell the hackers to do to get the job done, but not how they do it, what stats to raise, and skills to take, and what cyberware to use.

I think this will be more fun, cause I hate being constantly constricted by karma, I wanna be along the lines of the "oooh, 4 karma to learn to fly a plane? sweet!"

And the hacking stuff just seems fun.

[Medicineman]

I wanna be along the lines of the "oooh, 4 karma to learn to fly a plane? sweet!"

than get Yourself Skillwire and its also "oohhh, 9.000 ¥ now I can Fly a Heli " (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

HeyaHeyaHeya
Medicineman

[Heath Robinson]

According to page 240, there's no upper limit to the rating of a program. However, Response chips are restricted to 6, so anything above a 7 is just going to be a waste.

Matrix attributes generally range in scale from 1 to 6, with the lower ratings indicating cheap, outdated, or salvaged components/software and higher ratings reflecting well-made parts/code. Some cutting-edge and prototype models may exceed rating 6 attributes, but these are exceptionally rare and hard to come by.

The construction of a UV node requires state-of-the-art components and software with dedicated support systems, and is no light undertaking. The minimum Response and System ratings needed is 10, representing a pinnacle of processing ability and an OS customized and optimized for high-resolution graphic displays, physics, and other details of a realistic virtual environment.

Need any more canonical information?

Hey were are the rules for going above six in hacking programs? I always thought that rating 6 was the top of the line.....just going by the ratings descriptions in the BBB.

Programs have variable ratings, normally in the range from 1 to 6, though some cutting-edge or military-grade software can rank higher.

There exist no rules that state that Hackers are limited to Rating 6 in Programs. Enforcing such a limit despite your players coming up with a good plan is like slapping a cripple and telling them to get back in the wheelchair where they belong, cyberlimbs are too good for their kind. If <%Deity%> wanted them to walk they'd have given them legs that work.

[Ryu]

One could maybe give defending nodes a flat +2 for running Analyse, instead of +(rating). That would result in rating 1-6 nodes having defense pools of 1-8 instead of 1-12. Both hackers and TMs could work without being munched, and nodes of rating 4-6 would still have a shot at detecting hackers. Should go well with the attribute+skill optional rule.

Munched TM stealth would work even better, so I would suggest to change Assist Operation to "dp +sprite rating".

[Jaid]

Am I missing something again?

There is a limited number of programs where the dicepool is critical, and the TM will boost whatever is currently needed.

Yes you are:

there are 3 kinds of lies; lies, damn lies, and statistics.

(or, in other words, you are absolutely right. it doesn't matter how many programs you can run, it matters how many significant programs you can run, and that is limited by what programs you need in a given sitatuation, not just what you have available to you)

[InfinityzeN]

Hey were are the rules for going above six in hacking programs? I always thought that rating 6 was the top of the line.....just going by the ratings descriptions in the BBB.

As already covered, there is no actual limit to program rating. A hacker who takes the (really long) time and (hugely high) effort to write a Stealth [Rating: 12, Optimized: 6] program can run it just fine on a Response/System 6/6 Commlink.

The other point I would make is that I am using the program rating limiting the number of successes rater than adding dice (unwired alternate rules). Is anybody else using it/tried it?

As I stated several times in this thread, I use the optional rule "Useing Attributes" (Unwired, P: 39) which is most likely what you are referring too. It greatly cuts a TMs dicepool down, often to lower then what a hacker can get. I find this balances out the TMs crazy high program rating (good for passive effects, since a crazy high Cap isn't any good without enough dice to hit it) fairly nicely.

Plus as stated, a Hacker can always code up a higher rating program. I checked my PCs downtime log last night after my last post, the team Hacker is up to Stealth [R: 8, Optimizied: 3, Crashguard, Ergonomic] source code. (He increases Optimizied by a point before Rating)

[Draco18s]

Yes you are:

there are 3 kinds of lies; lies, damn lies, and statistics.

(or, in other words, you are absolutely right. it doesn't matter how many programs you can run, it matters how many significant programs you can run, and that is limited by what programs you need in a given sitatuation, not just what you have available to you)

Start listing them then. Then look at the BP cost of getting the important ones high enough (it's fucking huge).

Once you've built you "this is as good as it can get" technomancer, build a hacker. He'll get to the same level in half the BP (1 BP -> $5000 -> 2 rating 5 programs vs. 1 BP -> +1 complex form rating). Plus, you can dump half the stats. Body, Strength, Logic, Charisma, Agility, Reaction, Intuition, all of those can be 2 without being detrimental (which leaves Willpower as a critical attribute for being able to take the stun damage). TMs actually need some of those stats, Charisma, Intuition, and Logic specifically, plus their special stat of Resonance.

Oh, you say, what about sprites? There's a limited number of those you can conceivably have at any given moment (1) unless you spend more BP/Karma registering them. And there's threading. Threading allows a technomancer to either not-spend BP to be as good as a hacker (say by only getting his CFs to rating 4) or to slightly exceed the hacker. Provided that he's willing to take a -2 to all other actions, which in some cases may not be advisable (cough, cybercombat, cough).

So lets compare:

TM:
Needs 5 stats soft-capped
Needs to spend 6 BP per program

Hacker:
Needs 1 stat soft-capped (Body is a good second)
Needs to spend 0.55 BP per program

[DireRadiant]

Characters aren't just stats and programs.

There are a lot of other things to take into account, such as abilities or bonuses unique Resonance|Magic attributes. The TM has plenty a hacker cannot possibly get.