A truly horrifying question, (My Bug City players, do not read.) Options

[Cunning Rat]

So I'm sitting here, planning out the next adventure for my "trapped in Bug City" campaign, and this question pops into my mind:

can the various Infected (ghouls, dzoo-no-qua, etcetera) be used as host metahumans for the insect spirits' Inhabitation power?

The only thing I can think of that would preclude it is the fact that all Infected are dual-natured, and I'm not sure how that interacts with Inhabitation.

[Ancient History]

Yes, they're all fair game.

[Stahlseele]

There's mention of a Toxic Insect Shaman Wendigo in the part about Bug City . .

[Cunning Rat]

There's mention of a Toxic Insect Shaman Wendigo in the part about Bug City . .

Yes, but she's a shaman who summons bug spirits, not someone who's had a bug installed in her.

Ancient History's response settles the question, though. Thanks!

[AllTheNothing]

There's mention of a Toxic Insect Shaman Wendigo in the part about Bug City . .

Who might be a blood magician as well.

[Browncoatone]

Great! Just when I thought I had a handle on the bug problem.

[Stahlseele]

Yes, but she's a shaman who summons bug spirits, not someone who's had a bug installed in her.

Ancient History's response settles the question, though. Thanks!

Who might be a blood magician as well.

now imagine that one investing himself with a queen . .

[AllTheNothing]

now imagine that one investing himself with a queen . .

I don't think that insect shamans can invest themselves, it's easier that the queen choses that the shaman is no longer needed and uses him/her as a host.

Also the Foul One is rumored to be female.

[Stahlseele]

ah, yes, i forgot about not being able to invest themselves with spirits . .
as for being female<racist>they all look the same to me</racist> *g*

[Cunning Rat]

Great! Just when I thought I had a handle on the bug problem.

Yeah, I did too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As an aside -- does it seem that insect spirits got a significant boost in power between editions? I took a bunch of average-stat humans invested with Force 4 roach spirits, wearing leathers (2/2). Nothing outre, nothing over the top... and these things still roll 19 dice on damage resistance tests!

[Ancient History]

ah, yes, i forgot about not being able to invest themselves with spirits . .
as for being female<racist>they all look the same to me</racist> *g*

You haven't seen the illustration, have you?

[Stahlseele]

i skimmed over the book, only when i read toxic, insect shaman and wendige on close proximity i did read a bit closer . . but i did not look at the pictures . .

[Riley37]

So the insect spirit Inhabits the wendigo, and uses blood magic to become even more uber.
The PCs manage to kill it anyways.
They take a deep breath and shift into post-boss-kill mode; looking around, taking off armor to bandage wounds, etc.
Then the master shedim, which has been waiting for just this moment, moves into the now-available body.

[Stahlseele]

"Why me?"

[AllTheNothing]

Yeah, I did too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As an aside -- does it seem that insect spirits got a significant boost in power between editions? I took a bunch of average-stat humans invested with Force 4 roach spirits, wearing leathers (2/2). Nothing outre, nothing over the top... and these things still roll 19 dice on damage resistance tests!

Stick&Shock works wonder against spirits, they ignore half of all the armor value bringing the hardened armor from 8 to 4 and the total armor from 10 to 5, which means that the roach (I suppose a worker) go from 19 to 14, now the S&S have a fixed base damage value of 6S(e) ad the net hits and the roach must resist 7 or more points of stun damagewhich means that it needs a number of successes equal to half (for a single net hit, more hit higher the percentage) of the dp with an everage probability of one tird (not very likely), add the damage boost from brust-fire, called shots, etc you can dispose the spirit quickly.
As a side note, the roach gets 19 dices while wearing lether in it true form (which disreguards completely completely the attributes of the host as the body gets destroyed, also why would a spirit wear lether?), if it's an hybrid form it should have the base physical attributes of the host boosted by the spirit's force (what is it the base body attribute? 2 or 3 dices?), if it is a flesh form it should have the attributes of the host, plus immunity from normal weapons, the +2 bonus of roach spirits and the lether.

[Rasumichin]

Yeah, I did too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As an aside -- does it seem that insect spirits got a significant boost in power between editions? I took a bunch of average-stat humans invested with Force 4 roach spirits, wearing leathers (2/2). Nothing outre, nothing over the top... and these things still roll 19 dice on damage resistance tests!

Yes, bugs have become a lot more powerful since SR2.
Flesh-form spirits (those who are now referred to as hybrids) used to have worse attributes than the host and one or two relatively mediocre powers (Venom and Enhanced Senses most of the time, IIRC).
SR4 hybrids, on the other hand, get -often significant- stat boosts, a whole bunch of -often awesome- powers and the fact that every hive can call upon 5 different spirit types with a variable selection of powers means that you can build up a really versatile opposition.
Plus, hybrid form gives you full control over the host's 'ware.

Combine that with the possibility to quickly infect hosts and you have a potential nightmare scenario.
For strain II and III, you just need some body fluid samples to do that, for the others, you need an appropriate carrier to drain and infect the hosts- oh, wait, there was something... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

Anybody here who is already picturing maneating, mindraping, regenerating roaches with mottled tufts of white fur sticking out between their carapace?

[Cunning Rat]

Stick&Shock works wonder against spirits, they ignore half of all the armor

Actually, I ruled that S&S doesn't reduce the spirits' armor value. "Half Impact armor" is meant to reflect the fact that Stick & Shock works by shooting electricity into the target -- as long as the electrodes punch through the physical armor & make contact with flesh, the target gets shocked.

The spirit's "Immunity to Normal Weapons" power functions, in game terms, AS armor, but it isn't actual physical armor. Stick & Shock is a normal weapon, and electricity doesn't really do anything special to spirits (not being magical in nature), so... there's really no reason to knock half the armor off.

if it's an hybrid form it should have the base physical attributes of the host boosted by the spirit's force (what is it the base body attribute? 2 or 3 dices?)

The Hybrid Form spirit (which these were) possesses Immunity to Normal Weapons. So, human with base body of 3, which gets boosted to 7 by the Force of the spirit. Immunity to Normal Weapons gives effective armor of 8/8, combined with leather for 10/10. 10 + 7 + 2 for roach spirits = 19.

[AllTheNothing]

Yes, bugs have become a lot more powerful since SR2.
Flesh-form spirits (those who are now referred to as hybrids) used to have worse attributes than the host and one or two relatively mediocre powers (Venom and Enhanced Senses most of the time, IIRC).
SR4 hybrids, on the other hand, get -often significant- stat boosts, a whole bunch of -often awesome- powers and the fact that every hive can call upon 5 different spirit types with a variable selection of powers means that you can build up a really versatile opposition.
Plus, hybrid form gives you full control over the host's 'ware.

Combine that with the possibility to quickly infect hosts and you have a potential nightmare scenario.
For strain II and III, you just need some body fluid samples to do that, for the others, you need an appropriate carrier to drain and infect the hosts- oh, wait, there was something... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

Anybody here who is already picturing maneating, mindraping, regenerating roaches with mottled tufts of white fur sticking out between their carapace?

The Foul One? To make it worse it could be an hybrid form nymph and later becoming a mother spirit.

[Cunning Rat]

Anybody here who is already picturing maneating, mindraping, regenerating roaches with mottled tufts of white fur sticking out between their carapace?

Yes, and it's scaring the bejeezus out of -me-. My players will run gibbering in fear. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[AllTheNothing]

AH I have a question, can insect spirits use medical clones as hosts?

[Ancient History]

Conceivably, though most such clones wouldn't be particularly viable flesh-forms.

[Neraph]

Actually, I ruled that S&S doesn't reduce the spirits' armor value. "Half Impact armor" is meant to reflect the fact that Stick & Shock works by shooting electricity into the target -- as long as the electrodes punch through the physical armor & make contact with flesh, the target gets shocked.

The spirit's "Immunity to Normal Weapons" power functions, in game terms, AS armor, but it isn't actual physical armor. Stick & Shock is a normal weapon, and electricity doesn't really do anything special to spirits (not being magical in nature), so... there's really no reason to knock half the armor off.

Actually, how I envisioned it was a small battery with a gel tip is shot through the air. The gel tip sticks to the armor and activates the electrical charge. The target only gets 1/2 Impact because their armor is against their skin, and their armor just got a healthy dose of "Plugged Into A Socket", or electricity.

Why shouldn't a primal force (electricity) be allowed to damage a spirit so effectively? All that is is human ingenuity being able to shape and control (moderately) the forces of nature. And, by your logic, why would an Indirect Combat spell that deals elemental damage affect the target? Yes, the effect is created through magic, but is non-magical istelf. For example, magic is used to spark the fire, but afterwards the fire is a real fire.

Don't get upset with players because they're clever.

My group is currently mage-hunting (cashing in on the 1 million bounties for Blood Mages and Toxic Shaman), toting licensed SnS guns. Makes my head hurt, but it's legal and clever, so I just make things more difficult. More spirits, higher forces, cover, ect.

[Kanada Ten]

Does SR4 make any distinction between elemental and normal damage? I don't think SnS, Flamethrowers, etc, are, in SR4, more effective than a bullet or a tossed rock against spirits.

[AllTheNothing]

Actually, I ruled that S&S doesn't reduce the spirits' armor value. "Half Impact armor" is meant to reflect the fact that Stick & Shock works by shooting electricity into the target -- as long as the electrodes punch through the physical armor & make contact with flesh, the target gets shocked.

The spirit's "Immunity to Normal Weapons" power functions, in game terms, AS armor, but it isn't actual physical armor. Stick & Shock is a normal weapon, and electricity doesn't really do anything special to spirits (not being magical in nature), so... there's really no reason to knock half the armor off.



The Hybrid Form spirit (which these were) possesses Immunity to Normal Weapons. So, human with base body of 3, which gets boosted to 7 by the Force of the spirit. Immunity to Normal Weapons gives effective armor of 8/8, combined with leather for 10/10. 10 + 7 + 2 for roach spirits = 19.

Immunity from normal weapons adds an armor rating equal to two times the magic attribute of the spirit/critter to the damage resistance tests made against damage inflicted by non magical weapons, so if the the spirit is hit with an active weapon focus (even a lowly force 1) the IfNW do not apply and the spirit must resist the damage with only its body attribute, if hit by a S&S (which aren't magical) it gains the benefits of IfNW (for a force 4 spirit it's (8/8 hardened armor); however the S&S inflict elettrical elemental damage, which happens to be resisted with Body + 1/2 impact armor (round up) + non conductivity rating (plus the +2 specific for roaches spirits).
So in the end your force 4 roach hybrid form wearing lether resist the damage with:
7 (Body: 3 human base + 4 spirit force) + 1/2 x 8 (armor from IfNW) + 1/2 x 2 (lether) + 2 (roach bonus) = 7 + 4 + 1 + 2 = 14

[Stahlseele]

Does SR4 make any distinction between elemental and normal damage? I don't think SnS, Flamethrowers, etc, are, in SR4, more effective than a bullet or a tossed rock against spirits.

Elemental Effect i think halves Armor, and Immunity to Normal Weapons doubles armor, so they get back to normal Armor(maho?@.@). Then Apply AP if there is more than - half and then apply successes and see if you get above their armor with the damage and THEN factor in things like burst-fire and fully automatic fire . .