 Sorcerers and Astral Projection |
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 Jan 7 2004, 03:41 PM
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#1
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Neophyte Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437  |
Here's an interesting thing someone pointed out to me.... By the book it seems that, regardless if you're an aspected, adept, or full mage, if you're Awakened and take the Dual Natured 'flaw' in YotC, you can Astrally Project.
Page 260 of the SR3 and the Dual Natured SURGE both seem to say just that. Please tell me I'm missing some obvious syntax somewhere..... I hate to think that in my years of playing a Dual Natured Sorcerer, I've never once used such a powerful Canonical ability.... :P Sphynx |
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Jan 7 2004, 05:02 PM
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#2
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
I noticed that when I was digging around about stuff on wether foci have mundane uses on the astral. I was also wondering if it could save me 3 BPs in your game (Hey, we are supposed to make our characters as powerful as possible, Yes?)
(It also says the same thing on P5 of Critters) [edit="jeesus"] I missed that one too. I do think it is pretty-much wholly canonical, especially from the description in the SURGE section of YoTC[/edit] |
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Jan 7 2004, 05:11 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
I thought it said Astrally Perceive... hang on a sec...
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Jan 7 2004, 05:18 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
'Dragons and other DUAL beings' it says. Above that it explains quite clearly that dual beings are not like characters, which can turn their perception on and off at will. Its true that technically speaking when someone is astrally perceiving they are considered dual natured, or dual beings, but its not intended to mean the same thing in those circumstances. In the context of the paragraph in question on p260, it refers to dual Beings, or creatures which are permanently dual natured.
Aspected Magicians all have the ability to perceive, not project, that's stated quite clearly on P160 of SR3. I think that supercedes anything which might be only implied elsewhere, like on p260 (the dragons and spirits chapter) of the rule book and under dual natured SURGE effects where it refers to the 'Awakened' insteal of being more specific. Something for the Errata I expect if someone wants to point it out to them. EDIT: sorry, that sounded really snotty. It wasn't meant that way. I'm just in a hurry! END EDIT |
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Jan 7 2004, 05:20 PM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
But we are talking about characters with the dual natured SURGE flaw or Shapeshifter characters. In YotC it states explicitly that if a character is awakened and has that flaw then they can astrally project.
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Jan 7 2004, 05:34 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
No, its says they can 'still' do it. Implying that if they couldn't before, they still can't! (really going now!)
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Jan 7 2004, 08:18 PM
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#7
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Wether the SURGE flaw grants astral projection to any awakened character depends on wether you think the line "effectively becoming dual natured" from the SURGE flaw does mean becoming a dual being. the description of a dual being certainly matches that of someeone who is permenantly dual natured.
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Jan 8 2004, 06:30 AM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
But dual nature does not automatically give you astral projection. It simply means that you can astrally percieve at will. Re-read the section on shapeshifters. Shapeshifters who are not mages can't project, so I don't see why any other awakened character who becomes dual-natured could - unless they already could. Spotlite is right.
Besides, isn't this "disadvantage" enough of a goodie already? Especially for adepts, who get the equivalent of a 2-Power Point ability, as a Flaw! Yeah, the disadvantage is that you can't turn it off, but as soon as you initiate once and take masking, you can make it look like you are not astrally perceiving, which reduces the main drawback to an occasional nuisance (sneaking past wards is still a pain, though). |
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Jan 8 2004, 08:56 PM
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#9
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Yeah, I based my decision on Shapeshifters, but to be perfectly honest, you can't use that as a way of saying it's non-canon. It does appear to be Canon that becoming Dual Natured and being Awakened allow for Projecting.
By the book, it doesn't say that Dual Natured gets Astral Perception even, it says they become Dual Natured only. You're having to base the Astral Perception primarily on what Dual Natured means (which is described on page 260) and the paragraph right after it explains that they Astrally Perceive, it says they can Astrally Project too if they have Awakened skills. The ONLY thing that would suggest otherwise is if you read the 'still' in spotlight's post as meaning 'still astrally project if you could before' rather than as 'still astrally project like any other awakened dual natured creature'. I think Spotlight is right, but that is still an Interpretation only, and not Canon. Looking for something a little more Canon before I mark this one down as a House Interpretation in our games. Sphynx |
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Jan 8 2004, 09:53 PM
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#10
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Never mind all, Canon source answer is on page 264 where it shows that the quote on page 260, the usage of "magical skills" was in reference to the "magical skills" power.
Sphynx |
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Jan 8 2004, 09:57 PM
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#11
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Harlequin Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 331 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 861 |
Critters page 5:
This means that a sorcerer who's dual natured can indeed project. Edit: Are you sure Sphynx? My interpretation is that the sorcerer would be able to project. What about Ghouls then? Edit2: The Critters book says that some Ghouls have Magical Skills as a Power (page 30), thus implying that Ghouls can project. |
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Jan 8 2004, 10:07 PM
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#12
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Actually, it only implies that "some" ghouls may indeed be Full Mages. The word "Some" is in there.
Sphynx |
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Jan 8 2004, 10:19 PM
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#13
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Harlequin Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 331 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 861 |
It says that some have the Power Magical Skills and if you read the description of the power all it says is that creatures with that power are able to astrally project. It never states that the creature with the power must be able to use both sorcery and conjuring to be able to project.
Edit: Reading through the BBB about magicians, it would seem that dual natured aren't automatically given the ability to project. I stand corrected. Though I always found that rule a bit silly (specially since the 2:nd edition had this cool Astral Adept) so I houseruled that aspected magicians can pick up projection as a metamagic. |
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Jan 8 2004, 10:30 PM
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#14
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,312 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
The sentence on p. 5 of Critters has the following problems:
It says "magical skills" which can be interpreted in two ways: a) This refers only to the critter power "Magical Skills" b) This refers to magical skills in general Option a) would disallow dual-natured (not just astrally perceiving) aspected magicians (SURGE-effect, ghouls, aspected drakes or shapeshifters) to project. Option b) creates problem No. 2 Any dual-natured being is allowed to learn aura-reading (even Cyberzombies can learn that). Since aura-reading is a magical skill, this would lead to any dual-natured being being able to project ... |
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Jan 8 2004, 10:57 PM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Wait.. what was problem number 1? That first one is the way it should be, IMO. |
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Jan 8 2004, 11:03 PM
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#16
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,312 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
The "problem" is that unlike other sections of the rules the sentence in question does not say "Magical Skills" with capital letters (or even a page reference) that would clearly identify the critter power. So the problem actually is that there is room for interpretations ... So while your opinion is perfectly o.k., it's not the sole valid interpretation of that sentence. [edit]And to make things "worse" option a) also would mean that dual-natured aspected NPCs could project (since L.D. already pointed out that the "Magical Skills" power doesn't only reference full mages) while dual-natured aspected PCs couldn't. Not very consistant[/edit] |
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Jan 8 2004, 11:47 PM
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#17
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
Sphynx, you found some cool wording. As a GM, I'll apply those words to Critters and other NPCs that I want to have Astrally Project. It won't happen for player characters.
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Jan 9 2004, 01:36 AM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
I'm still waiting to hear Sphynx's rules-call on it. My character in Sphynx's on-line game has the dual natured flaw and magical skills but I also bought the astral projection ability (Sphynx is using a more versatile magic BP system). If I really do get this by default then I want to hear about it. :P
(In Sphynx's own words we're supposed to munchkin/powergame as much as we want/can...) |
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Jan 9 2004, 03:41 AM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
That's not a gameplay problem. If it's ambiguous but works fine in the game, I'm perfectly happy.
But only critter NPCs, right? That's not really a big deal for me. The only time that's inconsistent is when the critter is a race that can be played as a PC. There are already major differences between those races as listed in Critters as opposed to SRComp. |
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Jan 9 2004, 07:41 AM
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#20
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Lilt, you have to pay for projection despite being Dual Natured. :P
Cochise, look in the powers themselves, like Accident. It doesn't use capitalization in the power description. Ie: "A character hit with the accident power must make a test". Case sensitivity isn't a factor. Sphynx |
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Jan 9 2004, 08:04 AM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
NP. I figured it should probably work like that anyway, but who am I to turn-down freebie BPs? :P
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Jan 9 2004, 10:51 AM
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#22
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,312 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
Obviously it leads to different interpretations that will become an issue of gameplay, once you play with someone with a different POV than yours ... ~shrugs~
Not necessarily. Metahuman NPCs can also be considered as "critters". At least that's also a possible interpretation of the table on p. 19 of Critters.
Which is more than just "once in a while" the reason for big discussions. Personally I do not like these inconsistancies at all ...
Could you actually provide a passage that says so? Don't get me wrong here, I'm not necessarily advocating the interpretation of dual-natured beings being capable of projecting although only being aspected magicians, but that has nothing to do with that interpretation being a valid one.
Than you must have a different version of Critters than I have. Mine uses capitalization throughout the whole description of the Accindent power, whenever the word "Accident" refers to the power (same goes for all other powers). There's only one case where "accident" is used with lower case and that's when it refers to the accident caused by the "Accident" power. So capitalization does matter. |
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Jan 9 2004, 10:57 AM
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#23
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Nah. I was talking about my character in Sphynx's online game where he's fully entitled to say that I don't get 3 more free building points from a 5pt flaw. [edit]Also: It could be read as a kind-of "you may not have bought it but you have it anyway so you pay for it" type of thing.[/edit] Personally I have reformulated my own oppinion on the flaw in which it dosen't grant astral projection to all characters anyway. Essentially: Dual Natured != Dual Being |
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Jan 9 2004, 11:21 AM
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#24
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Cochise, I'm looking at the Accident power as written in the SR3, same book I read the Dual Being rules in.
Sphynx |
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Jan 9 2004, 12:28 PM
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#25
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,312 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
And I'm looking at page 5 of Critters on dual beings and projection and the subsequent re-listing of all critter powers beginning on p. 7 of Critters ...
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