Magic / Technological convergence?, I'm sure it's been discussed before... Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[ThePolo]

I'm sure there's a thread on it, and if so, could someone point me in the right direction... I'm looking for input / discussion about the convergence between the Magical and Digital 'realms'. One of the characters in my campaign wants to do some research about it, and I need ammo to throw at him.

Basically, the assumptions that spur the research are the obvious, and I'm assuming (hoping?) that they've all been discussed:

Complex Forms = Spells
Fading = Drain
Augmented Reality = Astral Perception
Virtual Reality = Astral Projection
Sprites = Spirits
Resonance Realms = Metaplanes
Event Horizon = Watcher on the Threshold

... there's a ton more examples. Anyone?

[Draco18s]

Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic at the extreme.

Nice.

And wish I could help, but can't.

[BlueMax]

I consider it just system simplification. Learn one, know them all.

[Speed Wraith]

I haven't seen anything regarding an in-depth discussion, but I agree with BlueMax and feel that the point is to keep things streamlined using existing rules (sorta like how all the different forms of combat are pretty much the same).

IC explanation? Just a simple hypothesis, but since the metaphorical structure already existed for magic and popular culture is full of stories (some myth, some fact) about how magic works and metahumans are struggling to understand and accept VK abilities so they end up conforming to how magic is viewed.

[Draco18s]

I consider it just system simplification. Learn one, know them all.

Probably the Better Way to do technomancers: exactly like mages.

There would certainly be less hostility over their balance vs. a hacker.

[ThePolo]

Oh, no, my rational DM hat says that it's just intelligently re-using a core mechanic. I mean, in every edition of SR the magic rules have been spot on, and the matrix rules 'iffy', at best (for me, at least). It only makes sense, from a rules side, to use a common mechanic between the two... but, the hacker uses the system core mechanic, without reusing the flavor from another system...

But, dig into it and there are so many 'flavorful' similarities... things that step beyond the rules... Resonance networks, Submersion, Paragons... so much of it finds a magical parallel that it goes a bit beyond the rules. Makes me wonder how it will all work out in canon...

I think that Speed Wraith might be right, that metahumanity structures abstract concepts in forms that can be more easily understood, so in the end they end up falling into similar templates... that makes sense to me. But this whole debate's got my players going, so I need to keep ahead of them. The 'experiment' that they're planning for a few weeks out has me wracking my brain for an outcome, and I'm at a loss... (Technomancer takes a Mage along with him on a ride to the Resonance realms. While they're 'out' an assistant meatside doses both of them with Shade, forcing them to astrally project... WTF!?)

[Matsci]

Oh, no, my rational DM hat says that it's just intelligently re-using a core mechanic. I mean, in every edition of SR the magic rules have been spot on, and the matrix rules 'iffy', at best (for me, at least). It only makes sense, from a rules side, to use a common mechanic between the two... but, the hacker uses the system core mechanic, without reusing the flavor from another system...

But, dig into it and there are so many 'flavorful' similarities... things that step beyond the rules... Resonance networks, Submersion, Paragons... so much of it finds a magical parallel that it goes a bit beyond the rules. Makes me wonder how it will all work out in canon...

I think that Speed Wraith might be right, that metahumanity structures abstract concepts in forms that can be more easily understood, so in the end they end up falling into similar templates... that makes sense to me. But this whole debate's got my players going, so I need to keep ahead of them. The 'experiment' that they're planning for a few weeks out has me wracking my brain for an outcome, and I'm at a loss... (Technomancer takes a Mage along with him on a ride to the Resonance realms. While they're 'out' an assistant meatside doses both of them with Shade, forcing them to astrally project... WTF!?)

They both Die.

Simple answer, and they can burn edge to survive.

[ThePolo]

They both Die.

Yeah, simple answer, but why? Killing characters because I can't come up with an answer seems wrong, to me... If I can back it up with precedence, text, or more than just 'gut feeling', I'll feel better about it. I really don't want to just snuff out two characters in the campaign because they want to try something that there's no canon text for.

[Sir_Psycho]

Consider that magic, of any tradition, really boils down to "working because you believe it works", whether you believe you're throwing Zeus' lightning bolts or whether that potion recipe you're using was handed down from your wiccan progenitors. Mana, in it's rawest form, seems to be interchangeable and fluid, and shaped by traditions and culturally based perceptions. One of the things you have to wonder about SR magic (remember that not many player characters will know about Harlequin and Eran and that fourth world malarkey or even played Earthdawn for that matter) is to what degree are lifeforms on earth in a way responsible for it's manifestation? We believe it, we wave our hands, we appeal to our ancestor spirits, and magic comes. Given the huge amount of awakened creatures, metatypes, spirits, and other magical forms seem to follow our own myths and folklore of old, you have to wonder what extent our own folklore and mythology manifested these magical forms, just because we as a cultural entity projected them.

Now consider the matrix. ASIST was released in 2018, and humanity embraced it, plugging their minds right in and surfing the matrix. The Artificial Sensory Induction System can reach into a brain and tell it that it is sweating. You feel it on your skin as if it was there and even smell it. It's a consensual hallucination we all share. So, when the majority of the world all plug their brains into their computers, sending such complex information, where does the cruft go? If we're plugged in, what does ASIST do with our background thoughts, our subconscious? What's ASIST's protocol when it comes to fear? Simsense itself is not magical. It's just a mundane (by 2070's standard) piece of tech that interfaces with your brain.

Now what does the matrix, which as I said, is moved and shaked by billions of people on the matrix, with their brains plugged in, do with our folklore and mythology? What does it do with all that code that is essentially human thought? Does it get cached? Stored within files like unquantifiables and read errors? Now imagine that the matrix, full of an odd 40 years of that human information, gets so complex, that all the cruft, all the unused code, gets so complex that it manages to write something down. But folklore on the matrix is different to our historical folklore. Folklore is /b/ and leekspin and a whole lot of porn.

Perhaps you could think of the matrix as a piece of writing, and the resonance as an accidental acrostic poem, if that image does anything for you.

I was going to write a little more, but the clock tells me I have a job interview to get to. Clearly, not canon information I'm talking about here, just speculation. To summarise, the Resonance and Mana are totally different things. But their common link is us. We seem to subconsciously shape these immensely concept systems in our own image. We quantify and speculate and bring order to chaos, whether in the digital or spiritual realms. And now I really have to go.

[Kanada Ten]

Resonance and Magic are Ying and Yang. They are mirrors and your characters plan on facing the mirrors upon each other... Anything could happen. They could end up in a parallel reality where magic and technology are one. Returning only to discover they never left the Matrix. However, while astral projection happens at the body, it doesn't have to affect "where" the mind is - only how the mind perceives the world. An astral mind cannot perceive the virtual world, therefore, the characters "go blind" in this Resonance Realm, and then must find away out before their bodies die as their souls have jaunted from the meat. (Does Shade require a Magic Attribute, like Deep Weed?)

[Fyndhal]

Any sufficiently analyzed form of magic is indistinguishable from Science!

Saw that in someone's sig and thought it appropriate.

Eventually, in the SR universe, Magic, Matrix and the physical world will be interchangeable by just about everyone, assuming some disaster doesn't destroy everything first. A good example of this lies in the Imago book, with Quicksilver and his projects.

[pbangarth]

The OOC game mechanics answer is that Magic and Matrix are shaped alike because it is easier to learn and use one set of rules.

The IC game mechanics answer is that both realms are shaped in part by the human minds that use them, and therefore they should look similar.

The experiment your players are planning is cool. I hope any players in my campaign who read this feel licensed to do similarly cool things. "GMs just wanna have fu-un."

I suspect that an astrally projecting mind that is immersed in a technological construct should be blind, and find it difficult to get home. The technologically constructed persona should have no framework upon which to build images of the astral world, and should similarly be hampered.

Since it is easier to disconnect from the Matrix than to undo the effects of a psycho-active drug, there should be someone sitting by the meat bodies, ready to unplug them when time comes near. Dumpshock is better than death.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Oh, no, my rational DM hat says that it's just intelligently re-using a core mechanic. I mean, in every edition of SR the magic rules have been spot on, and the matrix rules 'iffy', at best (for me, at least). It only makes sense, from a rules side, to use a common mechanic between the two... but, the hacker uses the system core mechanic, without reusing the flavor from another system...

But, dig into it and there are so many 'flavorful' similarities... things that step beyond the rules... Resonance networks, Submersion, Paragons... so much of it finds a magical parallel that it goes a bit beyond the rules. Makes me wonder how it will all work out in canon...

I think that Speed Wraith might be right, that metahumanity structures abstract concepts in forms that can be more easily understood, so in the end they end up falling into similar templates... that makes sense to me. But this whole debate's got my players going, so I need to keep ahead of them. The 'experiment' that they're planning for a few weeks out has me wracking my brain for an outcome, and I'm at a loss... (Technomancer takes a Mage along with him on a ride to the Resonance realms. While they're 'out' an assistant meatside doses both of them with Shade, forcing them to astrally project... WTF!?)

The easiest thing to make happen would be to just have nothing happen, the Resonance Realms are similar enough to metaplanes that the shade assumes they're already astrally projecting. More likely, though, would be for them to be dumped from the matrix and just start astrally projecting. Something cooler you could do would be to have their psyches be damaged from the stress of trying to exist in both the astral world and matrix realm simultaneously and they end up with a negative mental quality like paranoia or sensitive neural structure. Or something really game-breaking you could do would be for them to be forced into a "Metarealm" where Resonance and Magic exist as the same thing and they have to travel through both the matrix and the astral plane at once to get back to their bodies, and afterwards they end up as "Technomages" who can manipulate both Resonance and Mana. Or maybe they just astrally project at the physical location of the node they were in when the shade was put in their system. There are several cool things you could do with this, it just depends on your imagination and willingness to stretch the rules.

[Speed Wraith]

OT, but is your sig from that Chris Farley sketch on SNL where he accidentally ends up on the Japanese game show Patrick?

[Patrick the Gnom...]

OT, but is your sig from that Chris Farley sketch on SNL where he accidentally ends up on the Japanese game show Patrick?

No, it's not. I like my sig, but I don't really want to let people know what it means.

[Kanada Ten]

The Internet knows everything.

[Speed Wraith]

Yeah, dude, I've got "Teh Google" you know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[The Jake]

I consider it just system simplification. Learn one, know them all.

I was reading the Unwired optional rules last night and apart from the Otaku style fading I really like them and think I'll use them. They make so much more sense.

Has anyone found significant issues using these over the default rules?

- J.

[Tiger Eyes]

I enjoy the quote from one of the freelancers. Or maybe it was Peter. I dunno, it was 2 am and I was tired, and I'm paraphasing quite badly anyway:

/begin philosophical statement

Who's to say that the metaplanes are the only other realms out there? Perhaps as with the metaplanes, which were only accessible when the level of mana rose to a certain level and connected our world to the metaplanes, the resonant realms have existed all this time, but our world only touched them when our technological level rose to the minimum... and, like metaplanes, which revealed more of themselves as the mana continued to rise and spike, who knows what will occur as our technological level continues to rise?

/end philosophical statement

The metaplanes and the resonance realms do not touch. The techomancer, if he/she uses Resonance Trodes, can take another person into the deep resonance. They'll both experience each other's test at the threshold (hey, if nothing else, that is a great roleplaying opportunity).

What happens when they then apply Shade? I'd go with a few options, with #1 as my favorite, and dropping from there:

1. Nothing. Their conciousness--souls, if you will-are deep within the Resonance, and Shade has absolutely no effect. If they "return" to their bodies prior to the drug wearing off, they will immediately be forced to project. It would be the same as applying Shade to a brain-dead person or someone in a deep coma. No effect.

2. The cross-mingling of technological and magical effects causes them to flat-line (throw in some seizures, maybe some brain hemoraging). Their teammates had better be ready to revive them. This is your brain, this is your brain going OUCH. Secondary effects, like a psychosis, would be fun as well.

3. The mage has his connection severed, immediately suffers dumpshock, and is forced to project. The technomancer sees the mage disappear from the resonance realms but it take him/her time to return to his/her body (remember time is completely subjective in the resonance realms).

4. (this sidesteps the entire issue, but might be amusing): The characters enter the deep resonance. They feel as though they spend a full lifetime there, waiting to see what will happen. Finally, after years, they return to their bodies, assuming nothing has occured... only to find that only sixty seconds have passed. (out of game, ask the remaining characters at what point they will be administering the Shade. Then go into an elaborate resonance realm journey, spinning it out, letting the travelers decide when to return... don't let anyone see the "clock" as it were).

[GreyBrother]

Number 4 reminds me of "The Jaunt" from Stephen King where People have to be unconcious when they are teleported since "jaunting" actually takes an eternity for the Passengers but only mere seconds for our plane of existance.

[Boscrossos]

If you and your players are willing to make this a bit more of a story focus, instead of just a minor poke at SR metaphysics, might I suggest a slightly more mysterious approach? Give them unusual visions, tell them their minds are opening to both worlds. Give the mage latent technomancy, and the technomancer latent magic. Then move on to the next adventure, and business as usual, only not quite. While exploring a system in deep VR, the technomancer suddenly notices an aura around an IC's icon, an aura of loneliness and hopelessness. The mage, while scouting astral space, might suddenly encounter a strange spirit, it almost looks like the spirit of a drone. But surely drones and machines don't have spirits...

Slowly the weirdness gets worse, and it all seems to point to one thing: the technological world is awakening. And to add that extra twist, it has a great dislike for humanity, who treated it like dirt for ages. Right when the rise of the machines reaches its apex, have the trauma team revive the characters.

[Hagga]

Consider that magic, of any tradition, really boils down to "working because you believe it works", whether you believe you're throwing Zeus' lightning bolts or whether that potion recipe you're using was handed down from your wiccan progenitors. Mana, in it's rawest form, seems to be interchangeable and fluid, and shaped by traditions and culturally based perceptions. One of the things you have to wonder about SR magic (remember that not many player characters will know about Harlequin and Eran and that fourth world malarkey or even played Earthdawn for that matter) is to what degree are lifeforms on earth in a way responsible for it's manifestation? We believe it, we wave our hands, we appeal to our ancestor spirits, and magic comes. Given the huge amount of awakened creatures, metatypes, spirits, and other magical forms seem to follow our own myths and folklore of old, you have to wonder what extent our own folklore and mythology manifested these magical forms, just because we as a cultural entity projected them.

This makes me think of Mage: The Ascension. Not having played, I don't know the nitty gritty, but the whole consensual reality shtick makes me think of it.

[Sir_Psycho]

I used the term "consensual hallucination" as a nod to Gibson. I might look Mage up, though.

[hobgoblin]

im tempted to view it this way:

the mage and the TM uses the same parts of the brain to do their thing, but the TM have evolved a alternative to the mages access to mana.

the big unknown is asist. its obviously powered by one hell of a analog/digital conversion process, but one thats potentially so fine grained in bitrate that it could very well be analog again.

and as the UMS makes way for heavily sculpted systems, the more sensitive among the population starts, at a subconscious level, to read the data out of the air as dreams, voices or images at the edge of perception and so on.

basically the brain detects these odd signals, find that its a quite similar to the ones it already knows, and tries to make sense of them.

over time, this will boil to the surface. intruding on the sensory data from existing organs (eyes are EM sensors after all).

and then things start to become really interesting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[ThePolo]

Awesome... exactly the type of conversation I was looking for. ... My gut instinct was 'nothing happens', but I wanted some ideas in case they decide to try to push the envelope (as my players are wont to do).

Upon further discussion, it seems that their goal is to find out if the Resonance Realms and the Metaplanes are 'the same place'... but they are looking at it as if they were actual locations, planes of existence in the idea of cosmology in 'that other game'. I think that their idea comes from the fact that the Astral plane overlays the physical plane, therefor the Metaplanes must be 'attached' to the astral somehow, and since the astral is relative to physical space, then the metaplanes must be too.

My challenge is to give them a result that satisfies their curiosity, but doesn't give them a definite answer one way or the other (unless I can back it up with canon). I think the stuff said above is enough to give me some direction. Thanks ya'll