Is it ok to share fan made tools here? Options

[piotrus]

For the past few months I've been working on some Shadowrun-related tools for my gaming groups (advanced handouts for items, allowing GM and players to easily manage all the items a character of an NPC has). Some have reached a stage I would be happy to share them with the wider community. But - is it ok for me to do so here?

By that, I am not only referring to the rules of this forum, but to the attitude of Shadowrun copyright holder (Catalyst? WizKids, Inc.?) to fan-made game aids in general. FYI, if the Shadowrun copyright holders have not clearly allowed fans to make gaming mods (or fan art, fan fiction, and so on), then the fans by making them are breaking the law... For more information, see my detailed explanation (to designers and fans) on BoardGameGeek. If somebody can point me to a place where Shadowrun copyright holders have allowed fans to make gaming aids, I'll be happy to share mine here. If they have not done so, but if anybody related to Shadowrun copyright holders is reading this, or knows how to notify them, please note that it is VERY EASY to make it legal for the fans not to break the law (just read my post at BGG - really, all it takes is a simple note somewhere on the official webpage or such - I even have a section "one-minute guide for designers" on how not to make your fans into criminals (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ). Thanks,

PS. Before anybody rants along the lines "but Catalyst would never sue the fans" (which is probably true...), "making gaming aid is not a copyvio" or such, please read my BGG post which addresses most common rants, FAQs and so on (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kanada Ten]

Are there any character/Matrix/etc. generators for Shadowrun Fourth Edition?

There are no "official" ones. You can, however, find several fan-produced freeware generators:

DnCRG -- still in early development, pre-betas available. Windows only.
SR4Chargen.XLS -- requires Microsoft Excel (may work in other Excel-compatible Office-like programs)
SR4 CGE -- Windows only.
CharGen SR4 2.0 -- Windows only. French site, English program!
SR4 Character Generator Helper Javascript/browser-based aid in calculating BP costs.

There is a Community Projects forum on Dumpshock where many software authors maintain threads about their software, and you can often report bugs, make suggestions, or find out about new versions there.

Clearly allowed to make, and might even be advertised by Catalyst.

[piotrus]

Clearly allowed to make, and might even be advertised by Catalyst.

I am afraid I am missing the "clearly" part. If the above is an official statement, it means that Catalyst (or whomever made it) acknowledges that there are unofficial software-based gaming aids. It says nothing about their legality.

If you mean that "there are many fan made tools discussed and advertised on this forums" and "presumably Catalyst supports this and has made unofficial statements along those lines" (which is the most I can extrapolate from the quote from this "ShadowrunFAQ", assuming its an official statement by the SR copyright holder), then I am afraid you are somewhat missing my point here. Unless Catalyst (or whomever holds the copyright) has given explicit permission to the fans to do stuff like this (create gaming aids, fanart, etc.), the fans are breaking the copyright law. Now, I fully expect that Catalyst (or whomever...) supports such tools, and would never sue anybody for creating them. But that doesn't change the fact that Catalyst may lose those rights in the future, or come under new management, and somebody in the future will listen to a copyright lawyer and decide that due to some "Internet piracy" they are loosing $ and need to make an example of somebody (this is, after all, what RIAA has been doing for years). I don't know about other people, but if I am going to help a "corporation" (hehe) I'd at least want to know that my good deed will not come back to haunt me in a few years in form of some legal trouble (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So, my point is that if Catalyst (or whomever...) wants to make it legal for fans to do stuff they do, all they have to do is to post a short notice somewhere saying so. Therefore I am asking: has an official notice allowing Shadowrun fans to make derivative works (that's the technical, legal term, for those curious) ever been posted anywhere (I couldn't find it)? And if no, is there a chance that Catalyst people are reading this forum and would care to post such a notice so that I and many others who create and use such tools would not not technically be seen as criminals by the law? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

I am afraid I am missing the "clearly" part. If the above is an official statement, it means that Catalyst (or whomever made it) acknowledges that there are unofficial software-based gaming aids. It says nothing about their legality.

....If you click on the post (it's a link) it takes you to http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml

[dobbersp]

so, if you were to post any community tools, which you have already claimed to have created on a public website....
this would indeed be the place for those no-good, illegal, piracy stricken, copyright infringing materials.

arrrr

d:- D

[Draco18s]

Yar har feedly dee, a pirate's life for me;
You do what you want, because a pirate is free!
Lol Limewire!

[Kanada Ten]

Isn't providing a link to derivative material considered copyright authorization under Use and Control provisions? It's not just acknowledgement, but actual promotion of such material, and a suggestion that users of Shadowrun should also use said derivative works. Their Legal page also encourages "the creation and proliferation of non-commercial fan-based Shadowrun websites."

WizKids, Inc. has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. WizKids, Inc. has granted permission to <fill in the name of your site> to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with <fill in the name of your site> in any official capacity whatsoever.

Are you sure that doesn't cover it?

[piotrus]

....If you click on the post (it's a link) it takes you to http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml

Ah, I haven't seen this before. Smart (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Isn't providing a link to derivative material considered copyright authorization under Use and Control provisions? It's not just acknowledgement, but actual promotion of such material, and a suggestion that users of Shadowrun should also use said derivative works. Their Legal page also encourages "the creation and proliferation of non-commercial fan-based Shadowrun websites."

Are you sure that doesn't cover it?

Hmm, that's interesting. The part where "WizKids, Inc. has granted permission to < fill in the name of your site > to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website" is pretty interesting. It certainly makes creating fansites legal. I am not a lawyer so I do wonder if the above can be stretched for creating of gaming aids, fanfiction, fanart and so on. That said, the spirit of their message is rather clear and positive (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I am certainly going to add their copyright notice to my gaming aid (which I'll upload here soon). I would encourage anybody related to WizKids (if they are reading this...) to consider revising that page to make it clear they support not only creating fan websites, but fan made gaming aids, fanfic and fanart.

[Adam]

Create fanfiction and fanart all you like.

Gaming aids are a slightly different beast, because Microsoft owns the electronic rights to Shadowrun. They have always been fine with people making gaming aids, but not fine with programs that "automate the game" or otherwise remove the need for people to buy/use Shadowrun books. And, of course, when creating a gaming aid, you still can't reproduce text/art that WizKids owns the copyright on [which is, to say, all Shadowrun text/art]

[piotrus]

And, of course, when creating a gaming aid, you still can't reproduce text/art that WizKids owns the copyright on [which is, to say, all Shadowrun text/art]

Thanks for the input. What you have written above raises two interesting questions:
* if interpreted strictly, one couldn't create, for example, alternate character sheets, as those contain quite a lot of SR "official text" (i.e. list Characteristics, Skills, and so on). That is even worse when it comes to automated character generators, which likely include comprehensive lists of skills, advantages, disadvantages and such. And such lists are certainly copyrighted. Were do you draw the line? To be honest, I don't think that you can do it legally (creating a character sheet is violating game designers' copyright).
* the gaming aid I am designing is intended to facilitate item management. My rationale behind creating it is that even experienced players can get lost in multitude of gadgets their runners can carry around. Not only they may not realize something exists, but even if they hear about it, they may not use it often enough to memorize the rules. As such, most of the gamers I know will not bother with "less important" items, and a significant proportion of the rest will have messy notes. Addition of customization options to armor or weapon makes it even worse. My goal was to make it easy even for n00bies on their first SR con game to use, for example, a heavily customized full body armor suit, and customized weapons (how many even die-hard SR gamers who read this forum can tell me without digging their copy of Arsenal but only with the aid of their character sheet and notes how does a "super machine gun" work, or how they can use their micro flare launcher in combat, or how do their gecko tape gloves exactly differ from their rappeling gloves? Or the difference between myomeric rope and stealth rope? Or how many people actually bother keeping track of ammo used (or of armor damage, with the optional rules in Arsenal)? Or how do you call the shots in SR? Almost nobody takes detailed notes about less known items (or actions), and thus what happens is that while designers put their creativity into designing them, most players and GM will simply end up buying a set of items for their characters and then never, ever mention them in the game again (and similarly, not using major parts of the books and rules as they are seen as "too complex" or "not worth the effort"). Almost nobody I know tracks ammo used (or armor damage), because there is no room on 99% of character sheets for such details. For similar reason, while a few advanced gamers may play with the cool rules for weapon and armor modifications, most - including those at con - won't. They are simply too cumbersome to easily implement (not by design but due to the fact that they are difficult to memorize and write down on character sheet). That said, for those of you who do use those rules - my respect, and note that my handouts are designed to 1) allow new players to use complex rules / rare items easy and 2) make using them easier for advanced players and GMs.

Ufff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Now we get to the hard part. What I described above may sound innocent, but in rule-heavy gaming system such as SR the only realistic way to do it is to cannibalize much of copyrighted text and rewritte it into a printer-friendly handout. Now, note that I am not talking about "printing the rulebook". Far from it. The item handouts which I am working on don't tell you how to run the game (in the end, they are just a glorified item handouts). But by summarizing some rules and flavor text they certainly reproduce some copyrighted portions of the game. Let me give you an illustration: this is one of my weapon item hand-outs (I've made such handouts for about 80% of SR weapons). You can give it to a first time newbie at a con and they will know all they need to know about this weapon. Experienced players should find it useful as well (as it lists all you ever would want to know about that particular weapon, with a singular exception of listing different ammo types available (I've another handout for that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ). Gamemasters can now easily equip NPCs with different weapons, and players can actually accumulate an easy-to-refer personal arsenal from loot (or stores). Of course, ammo track record included.

I think that such handouts are useful. But are they crossing the line in terms of copyright-allowable gaming aid design? I'd hope not, but I want to make sure.

PS. For the record, at that point I am writing those words I have mostly finished work on weapons and armor handouts (including most of their mods), and I will be moving into remaining items. I would also be happy to declare anywhere that full copyright remains with the original copyright holders (because nothing would make me happier than Catalyst using my rewrites in some official fashion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . But, legal stuff being what it is, I will also understand if you tell me that my gaming aid has gone too far and cannot be publicly shared by me (which is why I started this thread anyway, to get a feeling of how far one can go with a gaming aid in SR verse).

[Adam]

Sorry, I really don't have time to get in-depth in this.

To clarify one thing: You can't get in trouble for using typical terms like "Skills", "Athletics", "Edge" or even "Ares Predator", etc. The whole description of a skill or piece of equipment, however, would not be acceptable; you would need to produce a formally licensed product if you wanted access to that sort of information.

I'll try to get back to this topic in more detail later, or pass it over to someone else at the company.

[De Badd Ass]

... I don't know about other people, but if I am going to help a "corporation" (hehe) I'd at least want to know that my good deed will not come back to haunt me in a few years in form of some legal trouble (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

"No good deed goes unpunished!"

The short answer to your question is that, while the DnD folks have developed the Open Gaming License and Open Gaming Content in the form of The D20 System Reference Document (D20 SRD), the Shadowrun folks have done no such thing yet; and have given no indication that they might do so in the future.

[Adam]

That would be mighty difficult with the Topps-owned properties [Shadowrun and BattleTech.]. Catalyst and Posthuman Studios will be releasing Eclipse Phase under a Creative Commons license, though.

[piotrus]

Perhaps you could consider licensing fan made art, fic and game aids under a CC version? It would simplify a lot of legal stuff.

Another thought to consider: while the traditional way of thinking about Internet piracy makes most publisher cringe at releasing anything online, increasingly, we are finding that releasing part of a product online boost sales, as it leads to 1) more fan-made viral marketing, plus 2) people like to have both online and offline version of a product, so tempted by samples of online product, they will buy the offline as well (and full versions of online). My favorite example is the strategy pursued by Baen Books. They release their older positions as free ebooks, and rake steadily increasing profits from 1) new fans attracted to "free" series (whose newest installments are obviously not free) 2) current fans willing to pay extra for early, online beta-versions of new products 3) current fans willing to pay for new ebooks, not willing to wait a year or two for them to phase out into the free archives 4) current fans still buying print books even if they are available as free ebooks - after all, an ebook cannot replace a book for many reasons... 5) innovative ways to commercialize on fan-made products, as the creators of best fan-made fic are offered publication venue, splitting profits with the publisher.

Something to consider, perhaps?

[Adam]

Perhaps you could consider licensing fan made art, fic and game aids under a CC version? It would simplify a lot of legal stuff.

Same as with any sort of other open license: That would be mighty difficult with the Topps-owned properties [Shadowrun and BattleTech.].

[piotrus]

Same as with any sort of other open license: That would be mighty difficult with the Topps-owned properties [Shadowrun and BattleTech.].

Why?

[Adam]

Why?

Because the very first step would be "Convince Topps that this is a good idea." That's a project that could take Catalyst months -- maybe years -- before we got anywhere close to determining what could be released under an open license, much less actually implementing that license and then seeing any sort of rewards for the labor. It was a long process for WotC to make the decision and implement the d20 STL and Open Gaming License, and the situation there also drastically changed when Fourth Edition was released, after the primary lobbyist within WotC left the company.

It's much like the Steve Jackson Games situation, which they talked about here: http://www.sjgames.com/general/stakeholders/ -- for years, they have been trying to pursue computer game deals, spending a lot of management time reviewing proposals, making counter-proposals, etc. In 2008, they didn't do that; they just sat down and made games, and as a result, they made more money because they were more productive at their core competency.

Catalyst's core competency is making games, not lobbying Topps to release content that is valuable to them under an open license.

The situation with Eclipse Phase was much easier, because Posthuman Studios [the owner of EP, and a company that I am a co-owner of] wanted to release it under the Creative Commons license.

I believe in producing, releasing, and marketing open content -- I also believe in picking my battles.

[Blade]

But what about character generators?
For example Daegann's character generator has a list of qualities, spells, powers and gear with a small description (at least the in-game effects), often extracted from the books. This is very useful since you can create your character without having to know every piece of gear or look at your book to check the exact cost and effects of each and every piece of gear you're taking but it's using text from the book...

[piotrus]

Because the very first step would be "Convince Topps that this is a good idea [snip] I believe in producing, releasing, and marketing open content -- I also believe in picking my battles.

I certainly see your point; and I've run into organizational intertia many times. The "old guard" simply don't undertand how one can make (more!) money by giving something away for "free". It is my hope that in a few years, the wisdom of this approach will become even more apparent.

But what about character generators?
For example Daegann's character generator has a list of qualities, spells, powers and gear with a small description (at least the in-game effects), often extracted from the books. This is very useful since you can create your character without having to know every piece of gear or look at your book to check the exact cost and effects of each and every piece of gear you're taking but it's using text from the book...

Or the wiki, which was just a point raised in another thread here. The wiki is seen as "official" and intended to gather all Shadowrun knowledge, spread through hundreds of books (novels included) in an easy-to-navigate format (not to mention fan-made non-canon content). A very useful project, certainly - but seen from the "traditional" angle, it is a nightmare of copyvio... and to a varying degree, so is EVERY gaming aid.

The Net Generations and other pioneers of course understand that any sales lost due to "freely downloadeable" content are offset by the fact that new customers are attracted to the product that offers them those extra features (chargens, wikis, whatsnot), and existing one has their loyalty strengthened (and one just need to look at a gaming store shelves filled with thousands of rpgs to understand that the consumer has a lot of choice on this market). But the "old guard", when hearing "freely downloadable" (or a variant) is usually reacting like a bull to the red banner. That's life (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I am not surprised to learn that there are people withing Catalyst (and related copyright holders) who (like Adam here) support the idea in principle, but don't have enough power to make it an official policy, controlled by the "old guard" (for whom, let's remember, the entire Internet is an alien domain). Further, I'd expect that they are not aware (and purposefully kept that way) of half of the things that are being done online with their product, as they would see gaming aids designed by the fans as "Internet piracy" costing them profit. Some would probably opt to close all fan sites if they could. Wrong? Counterproductive? Of course. But as anybody who tried teaching how to use a computer to their grandparents know, some things are near impossible to explain through a generation/digital divide.

A parting thought. At GenCons, SR people organize great adventures/tournaments, with high quality maps, and even stuff like voice recorded messages and so on. I asked them if those adventures will ever be officially published. The answer was that is is very unlikely, as the con adventures are designed collaboratively, and thus "sorting a copyright is a mess". They cannot be sold, nor can the be released for free. So apparently, instead of agreeing beforehand to a copyright solution (like licensing the adventure on a CC license before people start working on it), we have GMs confiscating even the character sheets from the players after the game, as officially, even they are copyrighted and leaving them with a players violates the copyright (even through nobody knows WHOSE copyright, exactly). Welcome to the early 21st century, where copyright law is strangling everybody and everything. Or almost everybody... After all we are talking about the copyright law, of course, that was purposefully twisted over the past few decades by the big corporations, who are the only one really benefiting from strangling cultural freedom of others, and the only ones who when needed can afford to pay top bucks to sort the mess and buy the copyright content to whatever they need.

If anybody wants to read more about the issues surrounding the "free culture", check the links in my BGG post that I linked at the top of this thread.

[Dumori]

I generally ignore the major niggles of copyright law as if any ones going to go to court over it it would likely be that laughing stock of the net if not the world. They would likely lose more than getting rid of this "profit pilthering piracy" loses them and weaken the customer base of there product. Who would play and RPG where making your own charictor sheet in notepad would get your ass sued?

[Adam]

On the subject of Gen Con adventures ... we just released the Gen Con tournament from 2008 in PDF format, and will be releasing more material culled from convention games. We have a plan and a procedure in place for the events that Catalyst contracts the writing for, and it's been executed.

[BishopMcQ]

A parting thought. At GenCons, SR people organize great adventures/tournaments, with high quality maps, and even stuff like voice recorded messages and so on. I asked them if those adventures will ever be officially published. The answer was that is is very unlikely, as the con adventures are designed collaboratively, and thus "sorting a copyright is a mess". They cannot be sold, nor can the be released for free. So apparently, instead of agreeing beforehand to a copyright solution (like licensing the adventure on a CC license before people start working on it), we have GMs confiscating even the character sheets from the players after the game, as officially, even they are copyrighted and leaving them with a players violates the copyright (even through nobody knows WHOSE copyright, exactly).

To be clear here, Catalyst and Topps own full copyright to the Tournaments. This last year's tournament "Bad Moon Rising" for example was a contracted project. Prior to that, while the GM who ran the tourney may not have known exactly who wrote the tourney and produced the characters, I guarantee that the Powers that Be knew. Every Mission has had copyright information and every Mission author knew that after they sent in the final draft and the Missions coordinator took it, it became someone else's Intellectual Property. (I wrote Bad Moon Rising in collaboration with Joshua Rowell, but can't sell copies of it without violating copyright.)

For the Tourney with the sound bite example, IIRC Jason Hardy wrote it, proof-reading was handled by John Dunn and I amongst several others, Chuck Burhanna made characters, and Aaron Pavao did the sound work from Jason's script. We all love the game and work collaboratively to make the best possible experience, but we know who owns the legal rights to it. Also, the characters are collected between nights to ensure that everyone plays on the same field and doesn't compare notes to get information about other characters that they wouldn't know in-game. There is nothing to stop a player from copying his/her character on to a piece of notebook paper except for the amount of time it would take.

Until this year, with PDF exclusive releases, most of us did not expect the tournaments to ever see the light of day. The same can be said for the SRM Scramble a GenCon exclusive event that fits into the Missions campaign and can have a lasting impact on the direction of the campaign based on the event outcome. I and the other authors I've spoken with are glad to see PDF releases of products that we have worked hard on.

[piotrus]

Glad to hear that there the con adventures are going to be released! Where can I find the BMR? I'd love to see the 2007 one (with the voice) released as well, it was really nice (I was actually disappointed in 2008 that there was no voice in that one... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

Still, collecting characters AFTER the last adventure seems a bit too much for me (I like to keep my con characters for memories, and the 2008 GC SR Tournament is a sad exception... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) ).

[BishopMcQ]

Bad Moon Rising can be purchased at DriveThruRPG.com or the Battlecorp.com shop. Within that PDF are the characters from the tournament so you can have them in perpetuity.

[piotrus]

Thanks for the link to DriveThruRPG.com, they seem to have some interesting offers - in addition to BMR I see a few others items that appear new. Is it possible to buy a print version of BMR? Unfortunately, Drive site seems to be a mess - they have old books (3rd ed and so on) merrily mixed up with the newest stuff. Does anybody has a listing of which of their books are new (4ed) and not available in print? I am planning to order from their website but I don't want to buy old (3rd ed) stuff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) The "Digital Grimoire" seems good... am I missing anything?