[X] My Assistant

[wind_in_the_ston...]

I think full dodge is (theoretically) a perfectly acceptable answer to being engaged by a more powerful opponent - stay alive until help arrives. My problem with it is that it's so weak. If you're not good enough in combat to fight and do some damage, you're probably not good enough to avoid damage with a full dodge. Reaction 4, dodge 3 - perfectly average, right? Ten dice are not enough to save you.

[Draco18s]

Whereas 10x2 dice (short bursts) to shooting probably is.

[Ryu]

It´s better to dodge narrow long bursts with 7 dice than with 4...

[Cain]

If you want to suggest that it's perfectly acceptable to flip off your bike while driving to avoid being shot, be my guest.

Where does it say that a gymnastics dodge must involve "flipping out"? I can't find that rule anywhere.

[Matsci]

Where does it say that a gymnastics dodge must involve "flipping out"? I can't find that rule anywhere.

Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks

That sounds very difficult to do on the back of a motorcycle.

[Warlordtheft]

That sounds very difficult to do on the back of a motorcycle.

Also in a city master, it seems it would be difficult as well. Or actually kinda of a moot point.

[Crusher Bob]

Reaction 4, dodge 3 - perfectly average, right? Ten dice are not enough to save you.

You only get 10 dice (REA + dodge x2) do dodge melee attacks.
Against ranged attacks you are stuck with only 7 dice (REA + dodge).

[Draco18s]

You only get 10 dice (REA + dodge x2) do dodge melee attacks.
Against ranged attacks you are stuck with only 7 dice (REA + dodge).

Which is crap, +3 dice is the same as -1 damage, which is "woo" when the shooter already has better than double your dice pool. My characters always get more by edging (I've never built a character with less than 4 edge, typically I have 5).

[Cain]

That sounds very difficult to do on the back of a motorcycle.

But not in the back of a van.

[Sir_Psycho]

That actually does sound very difficult. Not to mention that they're talking about using the dodge skill to avoid the vehicle being hit.

[Jaid]

Which is crap, +3 dice is the same as -1 damage, which is "woo" when the shooter already has better than double your dice pool. My characters always get more by edging (I've never built a character with less than 4 edge, typically I have 5).

1) you can add edge *and* dodge. this should be fairly obviously an advantage over using just edge, but you don't seem to acknowledge this in any way here.
2) 1 more net hit on a dodge test could mean 1 point less damage. it could also mean *no* damage, if you cause the attacker to miss or if you cost them their ability to breach a vehicle's armor, or it could mean the damage becomes stun (and can be slept off), or if it's a spirit it could mean the attack bounces off of hardened armor, etc.

so actually, that 1 hit difference can make a huge difference actually. it can make the difference between "they won't be able to find a large enough sample to make a clone of you to download your brain into in a crazy experiment" and "not even scratched." that's a pretty big difference, if you ask me.

[Ryu]

To elaborate on Jaid´s second argument: Equal pools is a to-hit chance of about 40% (defender wins on ties), a +3 advantage on the side of the attacker is already a 60% to-hit chance.

Translation: If the stars are right, a piddling "+3 to defense pool" on full defense can reduce enemy to-hit chances by 1/3.

[Larme]

That sounds very difficult to do on the back of a motorcycle.

Nuh uh! I did a cartwheel on a motorcycle on my way to school the other day, just for laughs >_>

[ElFenrir]

Oh, if I were playing a rigger or such, I'd take Dodge, no doubt, or a go-ganger who specialized in combat on the back of my motorcycle.

But in many situations, points are limited. I wouldn't expect someone playing Master Bob, Sword Guy to manage to max out both Dodge and Gymnastics as high as they'd go at the start. Gymnastics, in Bob's case, would suffice quite well. Sure, he'd be kinda stuck in his car, but then again, I'd probably give someone a -DP modifier if they were sitting, strapped into their front seat, and were shot at, even if they were using the Dodge skill. Gymnastics, yes, would be flat out, but I might be kind and allow a bit of wiggle room to sorta lean out of the way, but strapped in without some room to move, it would be difficult.

A firearms expert, I'd say Dodge is the better bet, though Gymnastics wouldn't completely suck. They might well have the Athletics Group already, and if they were strapped for points, an athletics group 2 plus a Synthacardium 2-3 or whatever could keep them alive enough until they can get some Dodge(Ranged.) Non-combat characters, yes, Dodge would be the way to go as well.

Most situations seem to lean toward Dodge, but for a ground-based melee expert, Gymnastics is kinda the way to go, IMO. It wouldn't hurt them to maybe pop some karma on some Dodge for those very tight-places, but I wouldn't say for someone to sweat about it if they couldn't get it in chargen.

[Draco18s]

To elaborate on Jaid´s second argument: Equal pools is a to-hit chance of about 40% (defender wins on ties), a +3 advantage on the side of the attacker is already a 60% to-hit chance.

Translation: If the stars are right, a piddling "+3 to defense pool" on full defense can reduce enemy to-hit chances by 1/3.

Now do 4 dice vs. 20 pre-dodge.

Yes, our sniper throws 20 dice. Me, the "65 racial BP short of appearances" has only 12 (and not enough recoil compensation to do more than 2 short bursts without losing dice).

Therefor, adding 3 dice isn't going to bring the odds down to equal pools level, it'll bring it down to "+3 to +6 on the side of the attacker."

[Jaid]

changing from +6 to +3 is still a good idea. it *still* increases your chance of completely dodging. throw in a smoke grenade, flashpack, cover, or whatever, and you can get your chances of not turning into a fine red mist increased. that's generally considered a good thing where i come from.

oh, and to those who are talking about dodging strapped into the seatbelt etc: dodge is used for making the whole vehicle dodge. gymnastics does nothing for that. that's the point people are making with vehicles dodging.

[DireRadiant]

Which is crap, +3 dice is the same as -1 damage, which is "woo" when the shooter already has better than double your dice pool. My characters always get more by edging (I've never built a character with less than 4 edge, typically I have 5).

Going from 16 DV damage to 15 DV might not be much, but going from 16 Dv to 0 DV by avoiding being hit in the first place might be worth it. There's plenty of variations in how the odds can affect your decision making.

[Draco18s]

Going from 16 DV damage to 15 DV might not be much, but going from 16 Dv to 0 DV by avoiding being hit in the first place might be worth it. There's plenty of variations in how the odds can affect your decision making.

If 3 dice is going to do that for me, then I'll edge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The likely hood that Dodge makes a difference is really small.

[Whipstitch]

It's really dumb to look at Dodge in terms of Fail or Succeed. Hits on your Dodge test effectively remove hits from your opponent's attack test which in effect lowers the damage value of the attack. Not having a Defense skill of some sort makes you highly vulnerable to attrition from mooks. Death by a thousand cuts as opposed to a full burst is still a death.

[Draco18s]

Death by 1000 cuts (while not returning fire) or Return Fire?

Dodging is losing in the end. All you can do is run away.

[Malicant]

And since running away is not manly, it is better to die, like a real man should do.

[Draco18s]

And since running away is not manly, it is better to die, like a real man should do.

Yes. When I open a door on my way out of a building after having set explosives in the research labs and security is there with guns, I'm going to run the other way. Mmm. Yes. Away from the exit. Towards 4 kilos of C4.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

[Malicant]

It's still hillarious. Dodge helps you survive, but since it does not help you kill people, which you are too dumb to avoid, it sucks. Does this sum it up better?

[Draco18s]

It's still hillarious. Dodge helps you survive, but since it does not help you kill people, which you are too dumb to avoid, it sucks. Does this sum it up better?

I'm too dumb to avoid it?

I should point out that I was the only one who wasn't making noise that session.

[Larme]

Death by 1000 cuts (while not returning fire) or Return Fire?

Dodging is losing in the end. All you can do is run away.

You'll only lose if you start dodging and continue to dodge. If you use dodge to get into a superior position which either grants you cover or negates the enemy's cover, then you are not setting yourself up to lose.