[X] My Assistant

[Whipstitch]

Dodging is losing in the end. All you can do is run away.

It's actually trivially easy to use Full Defense while returning fire, since declaring Full Defense can be used as an interrupt action. You can actually shoot one guy to death and wait 'till his friends start shooting back before burning your next pass on Defense-- in other words, you don't even have to cede the first salvo to use Full Defense. If you're wired for speed and your opponent isn't, you can quite literally enjoy Full Defense against their attacks while firing as much as they do within a turn, if not more. It's a big part of why any smart min-maxer values Initiative Passes and Defense pools so highly; the ability to both attack and defend within the same turn ranks just below Surprise and monstrous dice pools in the list of things that can allow you to utterly dominate an opponent. Now, if you're facing off against a bunch of veteran Red Samurai or something, that changes things, but not every battle is going to be against high caliber opposition that threatens to match you in passes. You still need to be able to safely dominate those mook fights, however, or else you'll be in no position to hold off the big guns when they do arrive. And frankly, mooks can't be underestimated in Shadowrun; a couple Lone Star officers firing long wide bursts from their Colt Cobras can easily leave a 5 Reaction runner with a dicepool of 0 to defend with. Anyone slower than that and we start talking about getting hit by narrow bursts and talking about insta-gib territory. You really don't want to go down that road; there be dragons.

Besides, this is Shadowrun, not the Game That Shall Not Be Named; you're probably not going to get extra Karma for standing and fighting when you should be making break for the damn getaway car anyway. Sometimes running away is a perfectly acceptable option.

[Malicant]

I'm too dumb to avoid it?

I should point out that I was the only one who wasn't making noise that session.

Who is truly dumb, the guy running into avoidable opposition, or the guy following him? And unless your GM is a jerk, any opposition can somehow be avoided.

This is so much fun.

But seriously, if you are utterly unable to utilize full defense, because it stops you from hurting people for a fraction of a second, just stack initiative (and passes), attack pool and Edge, so that you can simply kill everything before it can hurt you. Enjoy!

[Draco18s]

It's actually trivially easy to use Full Defense while returning fire, since declaring Full Defense can be used as an interrupt action. You can actually shoot one guy to death and wait 'till his friends start shooting back before burning your next pass on Defense

So, I have three passes and the guys I'm fighting have three passes. I go, lets say first. I shoot, then they shoot back (I burn a complex action dodging. Then it's my second pass (used). Then theirs, I dodge. Then it's my third (used).

Wait. This is still using up my complex actions just as fast! And if I go second (slower initiative) then I don't even get to shoot once. Your point has been countered and defeated.

But seriously, if you are utterly unable to utilize full defense, because it stops you from hurting people for a fraction of a second, just stack initiative (and passes), attack pool and Edge, so that you can simply kill everything before it can hurt you. Enjoy!

See above.

Who is truly dumb, the guy running into avoidable opposition, or the guy following him? And unless your GM is a jerk, any opposition can somehow be avoided.

GM's not a jerk. He's been rolling dice to accumulate successes towards "our being noticed" with the hacker (NPC) trying to counter the alerts that go out. It got too hot for him after the third one that we then had to deal with it. As for that particular room, the mage asked his force 6 fire spirit to take care of the problem. All the guards ran away.

My point however remains that Dodge is borderline useless:

If I'm doing things right and avoiding confrontation then I don't need dodge at all.
If I mess up then either a) I use the dodge and get the hell out or b) fuck it and have fun with the firearms.

[ElFenrir]

So, I have three passes and the guys I'm fighting have three passes. I go, lets say first. I shoot, then they shoot back (I burn a complex action dodging. Then it's my second pass (used). Then theirs, I dodge. Then it's my third (used).

Slightly/mildly offtopic, if the guys you are fighting have 3 passes each, either your GM is quite hardline(not an insult, but noticably hardline, since 3 passes are usually saved for higher end opponents, and usually not groups of them) or you guys seriously did something to piss some high-up people off. Teams of Red Samurai don't even have 3 passes(a Lieutenant does, but there is usually only one of them with the group, unless there's a LOT of them, in which case, Dodge is the least of your worries.) [/offtopic]

THAT being said, I'm more of a gymnastics dodge fan myself(being more of a melee fan), but I still think the skill has it's uses.

Hmm...perhaps the above situation isn't as offtopic as I thought. See, fighting teams of people with 3+ passes just doesn't happen in normal games(unless, again, the GM is uber-ultra-hardline or the PCs manage to seriously piss off a loooot of powerful people.) Maybe in that situation, Dodge isn't as useful as it is in a typical game(goons have one pass, a higher up goon might have 2 with his Jazz popper, etc.) The situation above is so...either unlikely or in an extremely high-powered game(again, in which case, the PCs are likely to be even more juiced up so they can take teams of people with 3 passes), that I can still say these skills are still useful.

[Draco18s]

I don't know how many passes those goons had, they ran away before it came up. But the GM doesn't use anything with less than 2 passes because they're so easy to get and so necessary.

[Jaid]

I don't know how many passes those goons had, they ran away before it came up. But the GM doesn't use anything with less than 2 passes because they're so easy to get and so necessary.

if they have 2 passes and you have 3, then you either go first and shoot, dodge, dodge, or they go first and you dodge, dodge, shoot, if needed. if you've got things at the point where you don't need to worry about defending, then fine, go ahead and just shoot. and the above only becomes more true if you have 4 or even 5 IPs (such as a rigger with appropriate 'ware). if you can just hold tight until the other guy can no longer attack, then you don't need to worry about defending. until that time, a bigger defense pool is not a bad thing.

nobody is saying that you should always defend and never attack. what we're saying is that when it's time to go on the defensive, you just might want to be able to actually go on the defensive. it may very well be that your best chance at surviving a given situation is not to fight, but to run (for example, if you can't penetrate hardened armor or vehicle/structure armor on your target, or if you can run for a bit to reach a more tactically strong position, or whatever). nobody here is saying you should never go on the offensive, they're saying that there will probably be times when you really want to defend well, and when those times come up it's a good idea to have a better defense pool. i don't see what's so hard to grasp, here. yes, you will eventually have to do something about the people following you (and assuming you can't just lose them, then you will obviously have to go on the offensive at some point). but if you can get to a position where you have the advantage and then deal with your opponent, or if you can lose them and all you need is a little bit more time, then you are going to want to be better able to survive, and that is what dodge (and/or gymnastics dodge and/or melee skills) allow you to do. this becomes especially true if physical combat is not your forte; a technomancer's place is not to pick up the HMG and take out the security guards, and may not even have the BP for an actual offensive skill to begin with. (or at least, not a physical offensive skill). not every character made is going to have 20 dice for their attack rolls, and it may be better for the team if they just dodge until they get into cover so that they can do whatever it is that they *are* good at (like getting the doors to open so that you can all get away, scrambling enemy communications, subverting enemy drones, conjuring another spirit, or whatever it is that you do).

like i said, dodge itself is not a skill that heavily combat-oriented characters should be taking most likely (or even those who have it as a secondary specialty). it is the skill of choice for noncombatants. gymnastics dodge is a good thing to have for samurai, because they probably want to have a decent gymnastics skill to begin with (the skill group that includes the skill also includes climbing, running, jumping, etc, and is probably a good buy for a sammy) and they may at some point want to have the option to defend. because after all, not having options is what's gonna get you killed. and your 4 dice are not going to be a good example either. for the right person, their defense pool may go up by 9 or even more (MBW III with dodge 6 (ranged +2), adepts with IA:gymnastics and synthacardium, sammies with synthacardium and reflex recorders, etc).

[Whipstitch]

So, I have three passes and the guys I'm fighting have three passes. I go, lets say first. I shoot, then they shoot back (I burn a complex action dodging. Then it's my second pass (used). Then theirs, I dodge. Then it's my third (used).

Wait. This is still using up my complex actions just as fast! And if I go second (slower initiative) then I don't even get to shoot once. Your point has been countered and defeated.

Declaring victory? I wasn't even aware anyone was keeping score. You purposely left out the part where I already said that staying purely on the offensive might be the better idea against opponents who can match you in passes. But most characters in the Shadowrun world don't have 3 passes. In fact, drones and Spirits are actually stuck with 2 passes unless someone is jumped into the former or sustaining an Increase Reflexes spell on the latter or fighting one on the Astral. Full Defense actions don't need to be an automatic winning proposition in all situations for the Dodge skill to be useful or worth taking. If you're up against multiple guys roughly as powerful as the LoneStar Lieutenants featured as examples in the main book (10 Pistols dice, 1 pass each), then you're probably better off taking a man out, going on Full Defense in order to avoid return fire (honestly not that hard when you have around a dozen or so Full Defense dice and your opponents are facing cover or range penalties; at the very least you're a helluva lot less likely to be instagibbed by narrow bursts or face automatic knockdowns) and taking another man down with your final pass. It's at least as valid a scenario as the one you just suggested, since very few characters have 3 IPs and virtually nobody has 4 without the use of Edge. Also, here's another thought: there's two primary ways Samurai find themselves unable to fire on their second pass: 1. You've already burnt it staying alive or 2. Your ass got shot. In an inherently team based game, I'll take my chances with the former, thank you very much.

[Draco18s]

if they have 2 passes and you have 3, then you either go first and shoot, dodge, dodge, or they go first and you dodge, dodge, shoot, if needed.

I have only just recently gotten my third pass (i.e. this last session--actually before Karma wise, and prior to this run, but last session was the first combat).

You also still haven't convinced me that dodge is good. A well built gunbunny should be killing people (or knocking them out) in one shot (i.e. a complex action or less). A man down on their side is generally more effective than staving off a little damage.

[Whipstitch]

What's your plan when you're facing more than 2 or 3 people? Are you just going to keel over because some rent-a-cop looked at you funny with his pistol full of stick and shock? It's not uncommon for me to throw things like 2 or 3 guards, 3 drones and a bound Spirit at my players. They don't all focus fire on one guy or anything, since I think that kind of coordination is going to be rather difficult for anything other than a mob of drones, but it's pretty atypical for my 4 man group of players to take out all of their opposition in one pass in a real firefight.

[Draco18s]

What's your plan when you're facing more than 2 or 3 people? Are you just going to keel over because some rent-a-cop looked at you funny with his pistol full of stick and shock?

Obviously have two or three gunbunnies in front of me.

Have I mentioned that my characters don't need the common sense quality? Whereas at least two of my fellow players have pretty much been given it for free because they're completely clueless.

[Whipstitch]

Then can you at least cede the idea that perhaps your group is a bit of a special case here and that Dodge isn't a useless ability? I mean, you're essentially saying "My team has 2 or 3 meatheads with street samurai level offense in it so I never have to worry about return fire. Victory through superior firepower." That's not typical or even plausible in most games. Personally, if I had such a group at my table, my fixers wouldn't even offer them anything but enforcer or mercenary type jobs against heavily armed opposition. A group with 3 or 4 gun bunnies would be up against paramilitary forces or bug spirits, (AKA, Gun Bunnies with what amounts to Hardened Armor) because apparently the ability to kill everyone and raze places to the ground is where their talents lie. They wouldn't get anything requiring subtlety, they'd get sent in to steal prototypes from an Ares testing facility, leading to situations like being on the wrong end of a pintle mounted GE Vindicator minigun. My current group of players has one Mage, one Adept specialized in Infiltration and Social skills, one Hacker and a Samurai/wheel man. Trust me, when you're the designated risk taker like the Samurai is, you come to value a defense pool rather quickly.


Also, FYI, my characters with Dodge typically gain at least 6 or 7 dice from using Full Dodge. I don't really see much point in taking it in piddly doses.

[Jaid]

I have only just recently gotten my third pass (i.e. this last session--actually before Karma wise, and prior to this run, but last session was the first combat).

You also still haven't convinced me that dodge is good. A well built gunbunny should be killing people (or knocking them out) in one shot (i.e. a complex action or less). A man down on their side is generally more effective than staving off a little damage.

if you're dodging a big enough attack, it's not gonna be a little damage. and once again, there are more character types than gunbunnies. hacking is not a useless skill just because your gunbunny doesn't need it for shooting people. it just isn't the greatest choice for a gunbunny. in fact, for a gunbunny, i would much more strongly recommend that you pick up gymnastics dodge, because 9 times out of 10 it's going to be just as effective for dodging, and it does a whole bunch of other useful stuff. so you're absolutely right, your gunbunny doesn't really want dodge. most likely he wants a melee skill and gymnastics, and it's entirely possible he'll only use gymnastics dodging on rare occasions... but when he does, it will be occasions where not getting hit is essential to his survival. maybe you're dodging a force 12 firebolt cast by a force 12 spirit of man that you can't harm, maybe you'll be dodging the main gun on an MBT, who knows. it really doesn't matter. there are situations where dodging is a better idea, and in those situations you're going to want to have the best dodge pool you can get... heck, even an LMG firing full auto (just takes a white knight with a tripod to negate the recoil entirely) will do enough damage to make it worth your while to not get hit. or, for that matter, full auto from an SMG is gonna be a pretty serious threat. sometimes you just need to avoid getting splatted, and when you do, you want the best chance of not getting splatted possible. it really isn't hard to get a DV of around 15-16. you wanna get hit by that? because i've had plenty of characters that don't want to get hit by that.

again, this is not going to be your default plan. this is for when you decide that not getting hit is the most important thing. like when the other side has capsule rounds loaded with gamma scopolamine and you don't want to get paralysed, or even just plain stick-n-shock and you don't want to be out for a combat turn or 3. there are some times where getting hit is more than just a little bit of damage. heck, several of the above situations aren't even all that improbable.

[ElFenrir]

Also, FYI, my characters with Dodge typically gain at least 6 or 7 dice from using Full Dodge. I don't really see much point in taking it in piddly doses.

Oh, same. Right now, my current character(close-combat, has some gun skill), has a modified reaction of 7. Right there he's damned good at ranged-not perfect but that's not even full defense. If he goes full? his Gymnastics of 3 gets added to the Synthacardium of 3, and his raptor cyberlegs give him another +2(they get +2 Gymnastics, including Dodge), for a total of 15 ranged dice. That's enough that, since tie goes to defenders, a character needs to get a damn good hit on him, more than likely-and he has enough armor/body afterward to solidly soak down most hits that might get through, for the fact of most hits getting through probably only have 1 or so net hits. If he were faced with a ''big bang-bang nasty gun'', like a Thunderstruck or the like, I'd be spending Edge on that dodge roll to ensure exploded 6's. Of course, i'd try not to do anything in game to need an opponent with a Thunderstruck coming after me in the first place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

(also, with a running rate of 37 with the legs, after he dodges, god help anyone within a range that he can reach in one pass and still attack. His melee block is even more insane: Reaction+Unarmed Block naturally 7+5, or 12, full is Rea+Unarmed+Gymnastics, or 12+3(skill)+3(synthacardium)+2(legs)=20 dice.

I didn't even twink out these numbers to any particular uber extents or had to sacrifice-these are all skills his concept had to begin with(Unarmed, Gymnastics, the legs.) Gymnastics and Synthacardium are high due to his use of freerunning to scout around, so that was a given. I wanted the legs on him and they ended up giving me +2(I didn't take them FOR +2 to Gymnastics, but it's a nice bonus). A naturally solid Reaction with some Initiative enhancers took them the rest of the way. For a combat-oriented character, it's not a big sacrifice to get that Dodge skill-in fact, he sacrificed nothing(it was pointed out about how a sam-type might have the Athletics Group anyway.)

Now, I agree for a non-combat character, this is an investment that must be made. They probably don't have these skills, and must scrape up some points for the Dodge(Ranged being the usual specialty, since you can add double Dodge to melee anyway on full.) But a 2+2 skill is only 10 Karma/BP, and not too difficult. And still for them, it IS helping. They won't be hitting things anyway, after all, so why not just dodge?

And yeah, in my character's case, Defense IS a good option thanks to his Riposte maneuver. Any solid melee build may likely have this maneuver, and even though it costs and action it can get fights over with. (Coupled with Finishing Blow, in case his first 12P attack doesn't neutralize the opponent.) A Riposte-using character can benefit GREATLY from having a solid defense.

As for firearms? IMO, it's better to dodge and strike back. You dodge first, and then either they eat your attack or use up their next turn to dodge. (Still, using enemies with 2 IP all the time is a bit extreme, IMO since by RAW those are reserved for tougher people, I mean, Red Samurai have 2 IPs-but to each their own world, I always say-not right or wrong, just a bit extreme to me since i tend to use IPs as one of the big ''gauging points'' to how powerful the opposition is-not the only one, but one of the big ones). But say you have 2 and they have 2. They get first and you dodge, and you can answer back your second turn with some bursts toward multiple ones-either they dodge, or they eat the bursts and either die, get knocked out, or be severely injured. Now, you get pass number 3 while they have nothing left. I've BEEN in situations where if I hadn't of had Dodge I would have been screwed, and indeed, one time I didn't take it I ALMOST got screwed. It's not the perfect skill or anything but to say it's the choice of losers is going way too far.

[toturi]

If you have Firefight Martial Arts and MBW, you could do with just a Firearm skill and Dodge.

[Hagga]

If you have Move By Wire you're moving so much faster than everyone else you could probably pillow-fight them to death. You know, just hit them really, really hard.

And your pillow might need to be full of cement. My point stands.

[Blade]

In SR4, Move-by-wire is less powerful than it used to be (at low ratings at least). A rating 1 move-by-wire is available at chargen and, while pretty good, it's nothing near what it was in SR3.

[Larme]

I keep mentioning cover, and everyone's still talking about using dodge while standing in the open like a retard. USE DODGE TO GET INTO COVER, THEN RETURN FIRE. IT'S THAT EASY. FAILURE TO DO SO WILL MAKE YOU DIE. But doing so means that dodge is not a losing tactic, it means that it's a vital survival tactic. SR4 combat is about cover, because bullet eating is not possible outside of very limited circumstances. Dodge is the means to obtain cover while being shot at. It is never a means to fight enemies while standing in the open, which is what everyone in this debate seems to be assuming.

[Draco18s]

I keep mentioning cover, and everyone's still talking about using dodge while standing in the open like a retard. USE DODGE TO GET INTO COVER, THEN RETURN FIRE. IT'S THAT EASY. FAILURE TO DO SO WILL MAKE YOU DIE.

As a player I'm not stupid enough to put my character out in the open; I know where the cover is prior to a firefight. And if I do get caught off guard, well, the sniper using his longarms skill to fire a full auto shotgun (yes, shotguns and sniper rifles are the same skill) is generally a better target.

[Malicant]

Taking cover is for wimps, I guess.

[Ryu]

Grenades are for wimps?

[ornot]

If you get caught off guard then you can't make a roll to avoid being hit anyway. Having a shotgun isn't going to help. Unless you mean you get caught in the open in a firefight... In which case the shotgun only helps if you get to shoot first (the fundamental truism of SR4).

If you do have a lower initiative, and you are in the open, then using dodge to get into cover is handy, but you get a similar effect from gymnastics. Once in cover you ought to be knocking enough dice off your attackers dice pool that you don't need to use full defence. If they can still hit you while you are in cover, you've got a bigger problem than choosing between dodge, gymnastics or long arms skills.

[Whipstitch]

Using Full Defense as a way to get to an important location, be it an escape route or cover has already been mentioned. Beyond that, it's not really worth delving into too deeply. Cover sometimes mean you have the luxury of not having to worry about using extra passes to defend yourself at all. Other times cover combined with Full Defense is your only hope of not being reduced to a meat flecked puddle. It all boils down to judgement calls beyond a certain point, so frankly, I don't think it deserves more than the cursory mention it has already recieved since it really won't do much other than muddy the waters further.

[Draco18s]

If you get caught off guard then you can't make a roll to avoid being hit anyway. Having a shotgun isn't going to help. Unless you mean you get caught in the open in a firefight... In which case the shotgun only helps if you get to shoot first (the fundamental truism of SR4).

By "off guard" I don't mean "LOLZ! Ur Surprised!" I mean "Oh, the rigger activated a turret that just dropped down from the ceiling, I didn't know THAT was there."

And I never said I had a shotgun, the sniper has a shotgun (and the player has a flaw version of common sense; not just a lack of the positive quality, but an actual invert-common sense flaw (for example, after a run with the cops driving up the street he thought he could make his getaway on foot by walking out of the house he was sniping from--in a trenchcoat with a breifcase-disassembled sniper rifle and in broad daylight--and walk down the street, need I mention this was in Havana, Cuba? I got Karma for telling him to stay put and mooch off the former house residents)). My weapon is a P93.

[Muspellsheimr]

By "off guard" I don't mean "LOLZ! Ur Surprised!" I mean "Oh, the rigger activated a turret that just dropped down from the ceiling, I didn't know THAT was there."

Under those circumstances, you need to make a Surprise test to act against it at all before it fires - yes, you can see it, but you are still surprised.

And yes, Dodge (or equivalent) is a vital skill in Shadowrun combat, precisely because you can use it as an interrupt, & it gets you to tactical positions alive. It has no other use, it needs no other use.

[Speed Wraith]

Dodge is the choice of inaction, therefore the Official Choice of Losers. There are few times in combat when not doing something is as good an option as doing something, and even fewer times when not doing something is the better choice. It is to Shadowrun what the prevent defense is to football, it prevents winning.

I've had so many characters in soooo many different games that would not only disagree with this statement, but would laugh themselves into comas upon hearing it.