So, how is SR4 now? Options

[InfinityzeN]

Not always when talking about high level government systems. They have no connection to wireless or the interwebs.

[counterveil]

Not high-level, no. But your average military base already has wireless all over the place, people putting up rogue nodes so they can get access, blackberries in peoples' pockets, etc. It's kinda sad, really. If the mil would just invest a bit in centralizing access it would make things much better, but as it is general internet access is so crap that people are always finding ways to get it themselves. Couple that with a lack of regular audits and it's a recipe for disaster.

Everyone should just follow the NSA's model.

[Cain]

That's rather the point. Any one of us could hack a generic system. Heck, I have no meaningful computer skills, and I can crack wireless networks using scriptkiddie toys. You don't need to hire an expensive shadowrunner to penetrate those systems. You need runners to get into the high-security areas and get sensitive data, places where the wanna-bes can't go.

If you're setting up your high-powered PC's to face weenie security, you're not presenting them much of a challenge. You may as well handwave giving them the paydata. What's the point of having a decker in the first place?

[counterveil]

Somehow I feel we've drifted off the original point, but them's the breaks.

My point in bringing that up is that *not everything is going to have a rating 8 Firewall with an 8 Analyze*. Some runs may, and those are the ones you have to prep for because you know that hacking on the fly ain't gonna cut it. Most challenging runs are going to have Firewalls in the area of 5 to 6 - you're not likely to drop that in 1 IP, which means you spend Edge to do so, or hope for the best. I'd say that's challenging.

You don't always put your gunslingers up against cyberzombie trolls do you? Sometimes they just have to go smash some mook face in order to advance the story, get some info, or make a point. Ditto for hacking.

To recap:
- Hacking rules *do* permit turn-by-turn hacking at the same rate that your gunslingers are shooting bullets (disbelief notwithstanding)
- You don't always have to hack the direct opposition to make a difference - in fact, it may not always be efficient
- Much like physical combat, some opponent networks are harder than others

At this point it just seems more that you don't like the rules or the paradigm - and hey, that's totally cool. There's plenty not to like, hence some of my houserules; to each their own. But I don't think there's any need to nitpick this one, because by now it's mostly a matter of opinion and how you choose to play/run your game.

[Cain]

You don't always put your gunslingers up against cyberzombie trolls do you? Sometimes they just have to go smash some mook face in order to advance the story, get some info, or make a point. Ditto for hacking.

Neither should the mooks just come at them in waves with no cover. The opposition needs to be a challenge for the team. The problem is that the only way to challenge a decker properly is with all-hardwired opposition, which makes them pretty redundant.

At this point it just seems more that you don't like the rules or the paradigm - and hey, that's totally cool. There's plenty not to like, hence some of my houserules; to each their own.

If you play Shadowrun Missions, you have no freedom to alter either the rules or the paradigm. Even within a home game environment, you don't have total freedom to change the rules or setting concepts willy-nilly. Someone may have based his character around the main paradigm; once game has started and you discover that they don't work, you can't just change the rules to what does.

[Veggiesama]

*blink* This thread has drifted so far off-topic that I'm not sure what it was originally about, and I was the one who started it.

To recap:
- Hacking rules *do* permit turn-by-turn hacking at the same rate that your gunslingers are shooting bullets (disbelief notwithstanding)
- You don't always have to hack the direct opposition to make a difference - in fact, it may not always be efficient
- Much like physical combat, some opponent networks are harder than others

SOLVED. Okay, moving on... =P

Okay, if you guys still want to talk about hacking, then tell me this. In the meat-world, we have rules for shooting people, punching people, concealing equipment, falling damage, vehicle collisions, etc. Lots of situations are covered.

However, I don't know if this kind of rigor exists with the hacking rules. For instance, a common tactic is to hack a security camera, feed it to the party, and give them a view of what's going on. Great... but how is that interpreted mechanically? Do you limit it to better descriptions of the enemies (like "there are four more coming up the stairs, and you spot grenades on their belts!"), or do you grant the party +1 dice pool bonuses for all attacks, or -1 to enemy attacks because they no longer have that advantage, or what?

There are a million other things like that, and I would hate to arbitrate on a case-by-case basis. That's not to say the rules can cover everything, but I would expect a few baselines to give the GM an idea for how to do it.

My main question: do the new rulebooks clear up situations like this (e.g., a list of cool stuff to do along with associated bonuses), or do they just add more layers of complexity with fancy new items?

Easier way of putting it:

There used to be a bunch of house rules that let players build characters with the karma system. Runner Companion introduced a karma system character creation, and now I'm guessing those house rule sets have fallen out of fashion.

There were a few huge FAQs and house rule guides to "fixing" the Matrix. Has Unwired (or Runner Companion, or anything else) made those house rules obsolete, or do people still use them?

Oh, finally: someone mentioned hackers could get 5 IPs? WTF?

[InfinityzeN]

*SNIP*
Oh, finally: someone mentioned hackers could get 5 IPs? WTF?

That is pretty easy to answer actually. Here's how it happens.
Default Hacker in VR: 2IP in Cold Sim, 3IP in Hot Sim
Add in 'Simsense Booster' Cyberware (AUG, P.37): 3IP in Cold Sim, 4IP in Hot Sim
Add a 'Simsense Accelerator' Commlink Mod (UW, P.198): 3IP in Cold Sim, 5IP in Hot SIM (Has rule exemption to limit of 4IP)

[Cain]

My main question: do the new rulebooks clear up situations like this (e.g., a list of cool stuff to do along with associated bonuses), or do they just add more layers of complexity with fancy new items?

It just adds layers of complexity. What you can accomplish with the Matrix has always been vauge in SR4, later books just game you more ways of doing nothing.

Oh, and 5 IP's? Both deckers and otaku can go up to 5. According to uncle AH, it was added to prevent adept deckers from trashing traditional ones in AR. I'll let you decide if it was effective or not.

[InfinityzeN]

Ummm, I built an Adept Decker in the 800 point thread who has 5IP. He also throws something between 24 and 30 dice with only rating 6 programs. And his DP in all the medical skills is 20 before any equipment bonuses. Plus he is very good with a PAB, so he will rewrite your mind and make you a good little Sith Apprentice.

[MYST1C]

Finally: When I say: "Frak!", you think of the new BSG. When I say: "Smeghead", you think Red Dwarf.

Actually, I think: "Damn childish censored swearing!" (Which, at least for movies and TV series, is usually dropped in German dubbing anyway.) In all the groups I've played SR with in the last 15 years shadowslang was hardly used, except maybe "chummer". After all, if somebody's an asshole why should we call him "drekhead" instead of, you know, asshole?

[Kagetenshi]

Maybe because he's being a drekhead rather than an asshole? I found that SR profanity goes down much more smoothly if you consider it as augmenting rather than replacing traditional Anglo-Saxon monosyllables. If the Irish can find room for "feck" somewhere between "oh, bother" and "fuck", imagining that "frag" goes somewhere in there isn't that hard.

~J

[Sir_Psycho]

Actually, I think: "Damn childish censored swearing!" (Which, at least for movies and TV series, is usually dropped in German dubbing anyway.) In all the groups I've played SR with in the last 15 years shadowslang was hardly used, except maybe "chummer". After all, if somebody's an asshole why should we call him "drekhead" instead of, you know, asshole?

Perhaps "hoophole" might be a little more appropriate than drekhead.

[psychophipps]

Perhaps "hoophole" might be a little more appropriate than drekhead.

The variant SR slang is a direct knockoff on the world of Cyberpunk by Mike Pondsmith. Mike also wanted to have "edgy" slang and apparently isn't so big on the classics like "fuck" so he made up a whole slew of slang that would make zero sense to anyone who a) wasn't raised in the hippy era with it's Nubian roots for African-Americans, b) wasn't a computer geek, and c) has any clue how real slang evolves from older slang.

[Warlordtheft]

The variant SR slang is a direct knockoff on the world of Cyberpunk by Mike Pondsmith. Mike also wanted to have "edgy" slang and apparently isn't so big on the classics like "fuck" so he made up a whole slew of slang that would make zero sense to anyone who a) wasn't raised in the hippy era with it's Nubian roots for African-Americans, b) wasn't a computer geek, and c) has any clue how real slang evolves from older slang.

I sometimes encouraged the use, but alot of that was b/c of the hosts kids or the store I was playing in had a few kids running around.

[hobgoblin]

It just adds layers of complexity. What you can accomplish with the Matrix has always been vauge in SR4, later books just game you more ways of doing nothing.

and if they had added the needed pages for the details your requesting, people would just go SR1-3 and leave the task up to a npc, as it would be a solo game all its own...

its a no win scenario for catalyst really. but then it would not surprise me if thats the agenda behind said wish for details. show that SR4 cant work no matter what, and attempt to force a roll back to SR3.x?

sounds a bit like how cyberpunk v3 have become a discontinuity, as it didnt take the game where people had been dreaming of where it would be go, instead taking it where cyberpunk literature had been going during the same time...

[Wesley Street]

If SR4 can't work, I don't know how SR3.whatever miraculously could.

I've been running the same campaign for exactly one year (toot! toot! Happy Anniversary!), so that's been 52 4+ hour sessions. And I have never ONCE run into any sort of rules problem or game play problem involving hacking, rigging or the Matrix. Most of my rules wrangling has involved vehicle combat (note to devs: new optional vehicle-usage rules would be awesome! k thanx bye) and resolving multiple Initiative Passes with weird combat stuff such as PCs and NPCs playing hot potato with a hand grenade.

[counterveil]

Hey Veggie, sorry we took this quite off-topic, but hopefully there's some value and insight to be gained by our witty [hacking] banter (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Neither should the mooks just come at them in waves with no cover. The opposition needs to be a challenge for the team. The problem is that the only way to challenge a decker properly is with all-hardwired opposition, which makes them pretty redundant.

Depends on the mooks, but sure. I think a system node with Firewall 4 and Analyze 4 is challenge enough for a half-combat-hacker-half-combat-medic, and those are not rare. A full on deck-er...sorry, hacker still stands a chance of failure (and detection during hacking on the fly) if the dice aren't working out in their favor. When that happens and cybercombat begins, I just weave it into the combat that's already occurring on the physical "plane" and go from there. Cybercombat operates on the same IPs and such so it works just fine [for me].

If you play Shadowrun Missions, you have no freedom to alter either the rules or the paradigm. Even within a home game environment, you don't have total freedom to change the rules or setting concepts willy-nilly. Someone may have based his character around the main paradigm; once game has started and you discover that they don't work, you can't just change the rules to what does.

Fair enough. I guess that's why I don't play in official tourneys and the like. There hasn't been a game system that I haven't houseruled in some way, which doesn't lend itself to such endeavors. I do make sure my players know well in advance that I may tweak the game system *during the game*, but by that same token I'm totally open to character "respecs" so long as they don't deviate too far from the original concept.

Back on the topic of hacking, I think there is some value in the whole scenario involving the hacker getting at the highly-secured data *while* a firefight is taking place and having to physically be in situ. This was a common scenario in old SR versions that was more often than not turned into an NPC endeavor simply because the decking rules were so cumbersome - not to mention on a different timescale. With the timescale now roughly equivalent and the rules being fairly easy to grasp, this should be a pretty doable scenario. Note that I haven't experienced this myself, BlueMax's half-hacker specializes primarily in cracking nodes, and not specifially around grabbing data (read: Needs better progs).

[Cain]

In all the groups I've played SR with in the last 15 years shadowslang was hardly used, except maybe "chummer". After all, if somebody's an asshole why should we call him "drekhead" instead of, you know, asshole?

What, haven't you ever played Star Wars, and called someone a "Scruffy nerfherder"? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Shadowslang variants exist in every setting. They're part of what makes it into a setting. They don't have to be real words, even: the Lord of the Rings wouldn't be the same without people swearing in Elvish and Dwarvish.

and if they had added the needed pages for the details your requesting, people would just go SR1-3 and leave the task up to a npc, as it would be a solo game all its own...

Like it isn't now? The pizza problem keeps popping up.

Depends on the mooks, but sure. I think a system node with Firewall 4 and Analyze 4 is challenge enough for a half-combat-hacker-half-combat-medic, and those are not rare. A full on deck-er...sorry, hacker still stands a chance of failure (and detection during hacking on the fly) if the dice aren't working out in their favor. When that happens and cybercombat begins,

Dice can go against anyone's luck. I've personally got an unbroken string of critical botches, at least one every session I GM, going back to the late 90's. That's over ten years, and that includes the SR3 days when you had to roll all 1's to botch.

But that's beside the point. A Firewall 4, Analyze 4 node isn't going to stand a chance against a decker throwing 15-20 dice to hack it. Heck, a Firewall/Analyze 6 node isn't likely to be much of a challenge either. The worst it'll do is slow a decker down, which compromises his actions in real-time combat.

[Draco18s]

But that's beside the point. A Firewall 4, Analyze 4 node isn't going to stand a chance against a decker throwing 15-20 dice to hack it. Heck, a Firewall/Analyze 6 node isn't likely to be much of a challenge either. The worst it'll do is slow a decker down, which compromises his actions in real-time combat.

Our GM pretty much only ever threw 5s and 6s at us because of how easy they were.

Even if you look at the sample systems the lowest rated one is like a bar with Firewall 4, Analyze 3 or something like that.

[Ryu]

But that's beside the point. A Firewall 4, Analyze 4 node isn't going to stand a chance against a decker throwing 15-20 dice to hack it. Heck, a Firewall/Analyze 6 node isn't likely to be much of a challenge either. The worst it'll do is slow a decker down, which compromises his actions in real-time combat.

So should a rating 4 node stand a chance against a decker with program rating 6, skill 6, appropiate spec, in Hot-SIM, and four dice from appropiate hacking augments (beyond the hot-SIM module)? An extremely experienced hacker with solid hardware should be (and is) able to reliably beat standard nodes. Good, yes?

I would warn those who try out the matrix rules to not follow into the "r6 is likely no challenge" trap. Rating 6 nodes with Analyse running have pretty good passive protection for anything beyond user access. It will not "at worst slow the hacker down". At worst it will make the player of the hacker totally frustrated with the PCs inability to accomplish anything.

[MYST1C]

What, haven't you ever played Star Wars, and called someone a "Scruffy nerfherder"? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Well, I already mentioned German dubbing... In Das Imperium schlägt zurück Leia says: "Sie aufgeblasener, schwachsinniger, mieser, widerwärtiger Wookietreiber!" - in English: "You pompous, half-witted, wretched, vile wookie-herder". Not a word about "nerfs". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

BTW, a more literal German translation of her tirade would've been: "Sie hochnäsiger, schwachsinniger, dreckiger Nerftreiber!"

[GreyBrother]

I prefer Fierfeck, Yes Yes.

[Cain]

I would warn those who try out the matrix rules to not follow into the "r6 is likely no challenge" trap. Rating 6 nodes with Analyse running have pretty good passive protection for anything beyond user access. It will not "at worst slow the hacker down". At worst it will make the player of the hacker totally frustrated with the PCs inability to accomplish anything.

Oddly, I haven't seen anything but the most glacial node manage to do more than slow a good decker down.

Well, I already mentioned German dubbing... In Das Imperium schlägt zurück Leia says: "Sie aufgeblasener, schwachsinniger, mieser, widerwärtiger Wookietreiber!" - in English: "You pompous, half-witted, wretched, vile wookie-herder". Not a word about "nerfs". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

BTW, a more literal German translation of her tirade would've been: "Sie hochnäsiger, schwachsinniger, dreckiger Nerftreiber!"

Forgot about the German translation, but the point stands. "Go kiss a Wookie!" immediately brings Star Wars to mind, and shadowslang automatically brings Shadowrun to mind.

[BlueMax]

What about Defensive Hackers in the node? Has that helped any?

[Cain]

What about Defensive Hackers in the node? Has that helped any?

That's part of what, for me at least, changes a node from IC-y to glacial.