Mage Sight Goggles, Mirrors & Line of Sight (LOS) Options

[Adarael]

It's all about the interaction of photons in the 380 nm to 760 nm range with the metahuman aura. Only photons which have come directly from the target have the auric resonance required to allow magical effects to track back. This is a quantum thaumaturgic effect known as the Granger relation.

/thread

You have just won, sir. Success!

[Lyonheart]

It's all about the interaction of photons in the 380 nm to 760 nm range with the metahuman aura. Only photons which have come directly from the target have the auric resonance required to allow magical effects to track back. This is a quantum thaumaturgic effect known as the Granger relation.

That's the much more technobabble (Magibabble?) version of what I was thinking. It's the same difference as using an teddy bear that belongs to the target to cast a spell at them and using the same brand of teddy bear, you need the light that has interacted with them, not a copy.

[Shinobi Killfist]

now that we know how, through photons. We just need a page reference of a nice chart showing us which visual enhancements can be done optically so we know what can be added to your mage sight goggles. Page number, anyone.....

[DireRadiant]

Photons have a an astral aura!

particle. wave, astral signature, it has it all...

[Gawdzilla]

Well, we already know technological devices lack the ability to see magic itself, only the effects of magic. So, that's why I go with my theory that any mechanical device that translates the image into something else (as opposed to simply redirecting the image) simply fails to make the translation of whatever it is that magic needs to see.

Photons that come from the target does make some sense, but would that mean some sort of bat shapeshifter that only sees via ultrasound can't target things? That doesn't sound right to me at all.

I think you're thinking way too hard about it.
The explanation is there to make the rules sound plausible, the explanation is not a rule in and of itself.

The fact remains that people are attempting to formulate some sort of scientific theory about a phenomena that is completely made up, and which conforms to certain rules more for the purposes of game balance than because they have internal, logical consistency. Just because a rule isn't consistent with another rule on some deep, analytical level doesn't mean that it should be changed. It means that it is there for game balance, and any explanation for it is just hand-waving for the purpose of making it SEEM plausible on the surface so that we can have some suspension of disbelief. Analyzing it to death is useless and irrelevant.

By the way, bats have excellent eyesight. Ultrasound is just more useful for spotting small, moving insects at night.

[JaronK]

I'm not saying that any rule needs to be changed... just that I think the in game reason for magic not targetting through digital translations of images is because technology can't see magic. And analyzing it isn't useless if it's fun!

Besides, you can target magic if you can see something's aura, even if it's in an entirely dark room with no photons bouncing around in it, so clearly photons coming from the target is not the explanation.

JaronK

[Matsci]

I'm not saying that any rule needs to be changed... just that I think the in game reason for magic not targetting through digital translations of images is because technology can't see magic. And analyzing it isn't useless if it's fun!

Besides, you can target magic if you can see something's aura, even if it's in an entirely dark room with no photons bouncing around in it, so clearly photons coming from the target is not the explanation.

JaronK

Only if you are astral perceiving. Otherwise your eating a vision modifier on the spell casting test.

[JaronK]

Of course, I did indeed mean while astral perceiving. Suffice to say, normal photons don't seem to be astral per se, so it's not the photons you need to target.

JaronK

[Gawdzilla]

analyzing it isn't useless if it's fun!

Haha I agree with you there.
I'm just saying, some people are tempted to house-rule or change things based on the idea that it "doesn't make sense", or doesn't jive with some other rule logically. I think that, in most cases, this is a poor reason for a house rule, especially considering that we're dealing with something (magic) that pretty much inherently doesn't make sense.

[JaronK]

Well, when dealing with something that has no basis in reality (such as magical targetting rules) I think the thing to do is to read the given rules, and figure out what makes sense from there. After all, that's exactly how science works... you see how something works, then try to figure out why it works that way. If your version of sense says something shouldn't work but it does, then it's your idea that's wrong.

So, we know a few things about how magical targeting works. We know that it's visually based (you can't target from hearing alone, IIRC) but that it doesn't actually require functional eyes (since blind astrally perceiving characters can target just fine). We know that as long as you can see an image of your target, even if your eyes are closed (and perceiving) you can fire, unless that target has gone through a technological filter that converts and reproduces the image in some way. Line of Effect doesn't matter since you can target through fiber optics and windows. In fact, ritual magic creates a magical targetting function without any line of sight at all.

So clearly, there's some magical connection between the mage and the target that does not function if there's any translation via technology, but which can be created by ritual magic. To me, that says that the technology is simply failing to translate whatever the magical connection is... it's not photons or sound waves or whatever, but rather something else, something which doesn't actually scientifically exist.

JaronK

[Draco18s]

Of course, I did indeed mean while astral perceiving. Suffice to say, normal photons don't seem to be astral per se, so it's not the photons you need to target.

JaronK

Astral photons from the astral sun pass through the earth.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Ayeohx]

I understand that some of you have the opinion "because it's magic". Valid but not acceptable. The rules are necessary for story writing purposes as well. I need a firm understanding how this system handles it's magic so my stories make sense and the player's don't think I'm just "bouncing things off the deflector dish".

I can understand binoculars because it's a spatial thing. You know where he is at, you can see him and you can toss a fireball at him. I can't remember if mirrors were always allowed because they seem to have that whole spatial issue. It'd probably be hard to bank a fireball off of a mirror anyways (humor, don't get your panties in a bunch). Wasn't there even a problem with windows? I'd like to say "I'll check" but that's a lot of books to thumb through.

And here's something else to think about. Indirect Combat Spells are physical manifestations that enemies can see coming, hence the Reaction roll for getting out of the way. If this is so, where does the spell come from, the fiber optic? Really? Before you answer, REALLY? Think about it. I understand that the fireball doesn't open the door, take an elevator and then zings the bad guys but this seems terrible story material (and pretty shoddy rules).

As said, I don't feel like house ruling anything, and while I rather just play, I want my stories to feel like they make sense. I'd be much happier if a dev can chime in with something.

[KCKitsune]

I thought that indirect spells have to actually travel from the caster to the target and therefore useless for casting through magesight goggles. Like I said in a previous post, Stun Bolt and Stun Ball would be a spell in EVERY Corp Sec Mage's playbook. It's clean, low drain, with it you can take prisoners, and it can disrupt spirits as well.

[Kev]

IAnd here's something else to think about. Indirect Combat Spells are physical manifestations that enemies can see coming, hence the Reaction roll for getting out of the way. If this is so, where does the spell come from, the fiber optic? Really? Before you answer, REALLY? Think about it. I understand that the fireball doesn't open the door, take an elevator and then zings the bad guys but this seems terrible story material (and pretty shoddy rules).

Actually, Indirect Combat Spells are, literally, a fireball (or lightning, or whatever) from the mage's hands that flies to the target. It couldn't use magesight goggles unless you felt like hurling the fireball around the corner, like firing a gun around a corner using Smartlink only. You also can't throw fireballs through glass; they'll explode when they hit the barrier.

Now for DIRECT combat spells, well... that's really the "magical" part of it all. It's less like a bolt of lightning or fire leaving your fingertips; you're actually channeling mana into a person to cause some sort of ill effect (knocking them out, causing massive physical injury, whatever). As long as your mage can make the connection with them; that connection being most easily attained via physical verification of them and their aura, then BAM, it's good.

The astral, if you remember, is a shadow of our world. Some of the rules are different, yes (like, you know, no gravity and no clipping), but the IDEAS of the world remain the same. Ergo, glass is still transparent, walls are still opaque, and mirrors still reflect. It is that psychic link formed by seeing the person (a link that technology just can't translate) that enables the mana conduit to be formed in order to shunt massive energy into the person to cause said crippling injuries. The psychic "reflection" is as good as the real thing, since the whole astral linking is, more or less, a certain type of psychic phenomenon. It's not like shooting someone with a bullet.

At least that's my two cents.

[DireRadiant]

I think RAW isn't explicit if Indirect Spells Manifest at the Caster and travel to the Target, or Manifest at the Target. You can pick one model, and then it's fairly easy to answer most of the questions. I have a feeling it's meant to be Manifest at Caster and travel to Target, but I can't find enough supporting information in the rule books to be certain of it. Personally I don't mind either model, but I do need to choose one to be consistent for my players.

[suppenhuhn]

We simply houseruled against fibre optics for casting. Opens a huge can of worms when mages can zapp you out of nowhere.

[Phylos Fett]

remember one thing, in earlier edition there was different variant on cybereye modifications, one optical and one digital, so that mages could gain the benefit.

That was for vision magnification. First mentioned SR1 SSC p85, for those playing at home (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)