a Bit of Magic Confusion, i am kicking myself for not knowing this... Options

[ElFenrir]

Okay, as someone who actually knows Shadowrun quite well, I suddenly got a bit confused as I read and reread something in SR4's magic chapter. Perusal of the Errata has also made it rather unclear, so I decided to pop a question.

When it comes to Mystic Adepts, it says, on page 186-187, BBB:

For every point of Magic invested in physical abilities, the character gets one Power Point that she can use to purchase adept powers. Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character one point to use with Magic based skills. For all other purposes, including the determination of the maximum level of Adept powers, the character's full Magic Attribute is used.

Bolded the section in question. Now, I've always known about the use of the full Attribute for adept powers. Not a problem.

But then I recall reading things in the forum about the problem with Mystic Adepts, and how they tend not to be great spellcasters due to having to split the attribute. But...since it says for ALL other purposes, the full Magic rating is used...so I'm guessing that also means determination of Force. If it counts for level of Adept powers, wouldn't it count for max Force as well? The split attribute, in that quote, seems to be implying that ''one point used with Magic based skills'', is dice I can put in. So if a Mystic Adept was 3/3, and he had a Spellcasting of 5, he could roll 8 dice for spellcasting-but be able to cast at force 6.

Unless this was changed to ''Max Force equal to points put in the Mana side.''

If this is the case, why are Mystic Adepts seen as underpowered, at all? I mean, 3 points of adept powers is decent, and being able to cast up to force 6 spells, even if they can only add 3 dice...if their skill is high enough, that's still damn nice(and Drain Attributes are as high as you want/cant get them, basically.)

To make a long story short, can someone clear up if the max Force a Mystic Adept can cast is linked to points in the Mana side, or indeed, exactly what it says(since it says all other purposes), to their full Magic attribute?

[Degausser]

As I understand it, use the character's full magic attribute (Physad attribute + Mage attribute) if you ever need to know what their magic level is. I could be wrong about the following, but this is what I assumed it meant.

For example, mage does an assensing test on a guy with Physad Magic 3, Mage Magic 3. The mage determines that his Magic attribute is 6.

OR,

Mage goes to a place with a background count of 1 (Outskirts of glow city) and looses one point of magic. His magic level is now 5 and he can choose to loose a point of Mage Magic or Physad Magic.

Also, his magic attribute is rating six for purposes of determining initiation.

[Mercurian]

From the FAQ:

Though mystic adepts must split their Magic between Magic-based skills and adept powers, it says that for all other purposes, including the limits of adept powers, the mystic adept uses his full Magic attribute. Does this mean that a mystic adept with Magic 6 who has allocated 2 points to Magic skills and 4 points to adept powers can cast Force 6 spells without flinching?

The Magic points allocated towards Magic-based skills counts for all aspects of those skills. This includes: Magic-linked skill tests (Summoning, Spellcasting, Enchanting, etc.), overcasting, and maximum spell Force, for example.

For power points and Magic when used by adept powers, only the points allocated towards adept powers apply. This includes Attribute Boost Tests and the like.

For all other purposes -- i.e., non-Magic-linked skills -- the mystic adept's full Magic attribute is used: pressing through astral barriers, initiation grade limit, Masking metamagic, and so on.

So in the example above, the maximum Force he can cast at is 4, and anything over Force 2 is Physical Drain.

[ElFenrir]

Ok, since it does say ''for all purposes, including determining level of Adept powers'', I guess someone can have, say, Critical Strike 6 if they have 3/3, or Attribute Boost 6, but they only roll the 3 magic dice when they actually USE the Attribute Boost power. (So they'd roll their 3 adept dice for the split, and then the 6 dice for the power.) I guess powers that aren't ''used'' (Critical Strike, Kinesics, etc), it only really matters what your max Magic is.

Judging by the FAQ, they changed it from RAW, since the RAW version almost clearly stated otherwise, but I guess it wasn't so clear because I was asking about it. It could VERY easily be taken as the other way, however.

[Mercurian]

I'm currently playing a mystic adept and had the same interpretation as you when I put the character together. It was just a shot in the dark when I decided to check the FAQ. Kinda bummed me out when I read it but it makes sense.

[ElFenrir]

It does...kind of.

I can understand how you can't use more dice for a skill than you allocate-that's the point of one. So yeah, the 3/3(6 magic) Adept rolls 3+Rating dice for his Attribute Boost or whatnot, and 3+Skill dice for casting. That does make perfect sense...

But they can have adept powers up to their FULL magic rating in levels, but can't cast spells any more than the stuff they put in their Magic, which is easy indeed to misinterpret. Why one and not the other? It's strange-a Mana 4/Adept 2 Mystic Adept can have a level 6 Critical Strike even with only 2 points in adept powers, but can only cast up to force 4 spells without Physical drain.

Again, the die part makes sense, but the ''works for adept powers, but not for magic'' part of the full magic rating just seems like it was done to prevent people from taking Adept 5/Mana 1 and having access to force 6 spells, and making up for it with foci to get the dice back that they lost(at least with an Adept, a 3/3 with Rating 6 Critical Strike just spent away half of his allocated adept points on that alone, or rating 6 Mystic Armor uses up the entire 3, which is what I'm guessing was the logic behind it-high ratings of stuff do cost a fair bit of points if all you have is 2-3 to spend.) Although, the Mana 1/Adept 5 caster with high-force Foci to make up for the dice, in that example, would probably end up glowing like a Christmas tree and be stopped by wards quite often, which are drawbacks in and of themselves.

[Gawdzilla]

Kinda bummed me out when I read it but it makes sense.

I was bummed too, since I'm playing a Mystic Adept. I do try to stick to the rules; I dislike house rules, so I abide by the FAQ. However...

I don't think it actually makes much sense. Maximum level of Adept powers is analogous to the Force of a spell in a lot of ways, and those get to use the full magic rating. Additionally, the Force of a spell is not in any way linked to, or determined by, the "Magic-linked skill" of Spellcasting. The way it is written, Mystic Adepts should be able to cast spells at a force commensurate with their total magic rating, but only use the number of dice allocated for Magic-linked skills such as Spellcasting or Summoning.

Clearly that isn't what they intended, that is fine, but it was worded very poorly.
If one were never to see the FAQ, I think it is likely that they would determine that Mystic Adepts do get their full magic for spell force.

[Mercurian]

The way I see it, if a mystic adept had access to the full magic attribute for the purpose of determining spell force, it would give them an advantage over a full magician in that a 3/3 mystic could theoretically sling force 6 spells and have access to three power points in phys ad powers. Granted, they'd have three less dice for spellcasting, but that isn't really much of a drawback in the grand scheme of things.

On the other hand, the adept powers that don't require rolls seem to take advantage of the full magic attribute, which counters that argument and implies that the adept part of the equation is more important than the caster portion.

[pbangarth]

On the other hand, the adept powers that don't require rolls seem to take advantage of the full magic attribute, which counters that argument and implies that the adept part of the equation is more important than the caster portion.

Which could be why the character is a mystic adept, rather than an adept mystic.

[ElFenrir]

Which could be why the character is a mystic adept, rather than an adept mystic.

You know, it's a small thing, but reading it like this has the rule make more sense in my head. Perhaps if you look at them like ''adepts who managed to pick up some magic'', instead of ''full hybrids'', it makes the fact they can use adept powers fully, but not magic, make more sense.

Of course, it doesn't explain how they can be 5 Mana/1 Adept in this PoV(if they are adepts main and mages second), but, well, at least it helps explain a 3/3, or a more Adept oriented combo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Neraph]

Of course, it doesn't explain how they can be 5 Mana/1 Adept in this PoV(if they are adepts main and mages second),

He put away his adept training in order to hone his spellcasting. In DBZ terms, he trained more on his fireballs and ki blasts than his martial arts skills.

[ElFenrir]

He put away his adept training in order to hone his spellcasting. In DBZ terms, he trained more on his fireballs and ki blasts than his martial arts skills.

Not a bad way of saying it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) He still has the POTENTIAL as a great martial artist(hence the limit of Adept power levels up to his Magic-in this case, he could take his 4 levels of Critical Strike and say that he learned to hit really hard), but practiced Hadokens more.

My mystic adept idea could still work; his spells were more going to be stuff like shadow/illusion type things, and more just for a touch than of a need to have high-ass Force. Of course, I could increase Magic later on.