Grand Theft Shadowrun, Things that pay better then shadowrunning Options

[TheForgotten]

Looking at SR4, it seems like the "street level" runners that the rules create get paid about 5000 nuyen/group per run. This got me thinking, what would pay a group of 4 Shadowrunners more then running.

1. Stealing Automobiles. If the runners get 20% of it's value one 25K car a week is worth more then running (and lets face it between your magician casting vehicle mask, your sammy and rigger jacking the car and your hacker to wash the registration, your runners are unlikely to get caught).

2. Working for the Mob, probably pays more then $1500 a week.

3. Breaking into most warehouse, electronics stores backrooms, jewelery stores, ectra, probably results in much more then 25K in goods stolen (especially if the characters also take the forklifts).

4. Talislegging, though just barely unless you find mineral reagents.

5. Enchanting

6. Running a magic/matrix assisted con.

7. Swiping a shipping container down by the docks most likely results in more then 25k worth of goods.

8. Organized piracy, as noted in cyberpirates, results in higher income levels then even most 2nd edition runners.

9. Identity theft.

10. Most forms of smuggling.

Shadowrunning seems a bit high risk when you could just ebay a couple crates of guns you bought with somebody elses SIN.

[Synner667]

SR1 wasn't about thieves and criminals...
...It was about people who aren't party of the system, part of the 9-5, part of the mainstream world.

For many of them, it wasn't about stealing - it was about living in the short term, and being paid stupid amounts of money was a rarity, not the apparantly common event it is now...
...Many of the fiction characters didn't have much of a choice in their life, and sure as hell didn't get paid large amounts of money - not even the top rankers in the books, who very often were legit professionals and not criminals.

Racking up 5K in one night is pretty good [hell, I'd like to do something that paid that much in a month]...
...But there were other options - private eye, musician, etc.

Most of those options appear to have been lost, so there's not much for the apparently average special ops/super hacker/super smoothtalker character/etc to do.

Anyone with any sense realises that characters could have a much better life than being a shadowrunner...
..,But few people seem willing to do the things that generate the real money, becase it takes time and effort, and many people would rather just blow holes in things and think that's enough [which isn't for me].

And for them, i wonder why they don;t just do online 1st person shooters - none of that boring "character" stuff needed there, and as many explosions as you can handle.

[DireRadiant]

Yep.

Why does anyone do anything except the best thing that gets them the best money?

I mean, it's not like people take jobs as teachers, law enforcement, military service, civil service and a few other things when the same skills could get them far more money doing something else.

But it's just about the money isn't it? That's all that anything is about? There are absolutely no other things to think about?

Nuyen, Karma, attributes, skills numbers, DV, that's all a ROLE playing game is about. Nothing about feelings, emotions, motivations, character, desire, wishes, dreams personality, cares, likes, passions, and other non monetary things.

[Starmage21]

Looking at SR4, it seems like the "street level" runners that the rules create get paid about 5000 nuyen/group per run. This got me thinking, what would pay a group of 4 Shadowrunners more then running.

1. Stealing Automobiles. If the runners get 20% of it's value one 25K car a week is worth more then running (and lets face it between your magician casting vehicle mask, your sammy and rigger jacking the car and your hacker to wash the registration, your runners are unlikely to get caught).

2. Working for the Mob, probably pays more then $1500 a week.

3. Breaking into most warehouse, electronics stores backrooms, jewelery stores, ectra, probably results in much more then 25K in goods stolen (especially if the characters also take the forklifts).

4. Talislegging, though just barely unless you find mineral reagents.

5. Enchanting

6. Running a magic/matrix assisted con.

7. Swiping a shipping container down by the docks most likely results in more then 25k worth of goods.

8. Organized piracy, as noted in cyberpirates, results in higher income levels then even most 2nd edition runners.

9. Identity theft.

10. Most forms of smuggling.

Shadowrunning seems a bit high risk when you could just ebay a couple crates of guns you bought with somebody elses SIN.

But shadowrunning is fun, and may involve one or more of the above things anyway.

[Adarael]

1) Leaving aside the fact that it's really hard to clean all the registrations - because they have stealth RFID tags in all the PARTS, too - a 25k car will net the runners about 7500 per car, assuming they have an OK negotiator. Remember fenced goods usually net you less than half of the cost, and 30% is about standard for a hot car.

2) Damn right it pays more than 1500 a week. They also have to WANT you to work for them. And honestly, working for the mob shouldn't be an unreasonable goal for low-rent runners. I mean, seriously... get made, and you're MADE, you know?

3) See the above 30% figure. You also have to get your fence to move that gear, and they sure as hell aren't paying you more than 25-35% of the cost for it.

4) Yeah, true. Though it probably depends on where you live. It's an easier job in Tir Tairngire than Los Angeles.

5) Yes indeed. No argument there.

6) I would count a magic/matrix assisted con as a pro-active shadowrun. You're just not stealing for anyone but yourself.

7) No, it's probably not gonna be more than 25k, especially after fencing. A shipping crate of nutri-soy? Barbie dolls? Fish paste? Plastic forks? No, not really. You'd have to get pretty lucky to beat out 25k. Just know which crate they ship the Eurocar Westwinds in!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Piracy is better paying. And also awesome.

9) True, but it's also more difficult than shadowrunning if you want to stay in the business for any amount of time.

10) True, but again, more difficult. Lots of contacts are needed, lots of wheels need greasing.

You know what else makes more money?

Being a corporate manager.
Being a rock star.
Being a drug kingpin.
Selling your body for parts if you're a shapeshifter with the type o quality.

But most of these are not options for runners, y'know?

[InfinityzeN]

The accepted payrate is $2,500 per Karma awarded + % of monthly living cost (Average Lifestyle of Group / Number of runs a month) + reasonable expenses (or enough loot to cover that) *PER* runner.

So if the average Karma award is 4, the runners do 4 runs a month, and their average lifestyle is High, each of them should net around $12,500 per run after expenses.

[BlueMax]

SR1 wasn't about thieves and criminals...
...It was about people who aren't party of the system, part of the 9-5, part of the mainstream world.

For many of them, it wasn't about stealing - it was about living in the short term, and being paid stupid amounts of money was a rarity, not the apparantly common event it is now...
...Many of the fiction characters didn't have much of a choice in their life, and sure as hell didn't get paid large amounts of money - not even the top rankers in the books, who very often were legit professionals and not criminals.

Yes! Someone who remembers the days when Shadowrun wasn't just GTA MMLXXIII.
I always thought Shadowrunners were more like Adventurers then criminals.

[The Neutronium A...]

Leaving aside the runners who aren't in it for the money there's going to be a lot more competition in all of those fields than in running the shadows. What's more there are also probably to be lots of hidden costs in bribes, greasing the right wheels and dealing with the risk that you might be the victim of a hostile take over.

There's also the issue of career progression. Good SR teams are always in demand and although the risks go up so do the rewards whereas most of the jobs you mentioned are either going to be a road to nowhere or see the characters shunted in to management pretty quick.

[Kanada Ten]

The prosecutor said that the cars bought from the thieves were worth an average of $13,000 but that the undercover detective paid an average of $500 for them. That seems to be the "going rate" that fences and chop shops pay street thieves, Inspector Thrash said. "They can steal several cars a night, so they're still making out pretty well," he said.

4% for stolen cars, on average.

[Draco18s]

$500 for a car? I could steal 1 a week and be set for life!

[Red-ROM]

i think some runners fall into this line of work just like normal people fall into plumbing or waiting tables, that or they want the thrills (the later is definately true for the players behined the characters)

[GrinderTheTroll]

Looking at SR4, it seems like the "street level" runners that the rules create get paid about 5000 nuyen/group per run. This got me thinking, what would pay a group of 4 Shadowrunners more then running.
<snip>
Shadowrunning seems a bit high risk when you could just ebay a couple crates of guns you bought with somebody elses SIN.

This to me is the best part of playing an RPG over a board game. You get a chance to imagine and do whatever you'd like. I've been part of many groups that like the "Grand Theft Seattle" approach so it worked for us. My current group is more about doing a "professional job" and tying up loose ends which works for them. And don't ask about my AD&D days where we had little direction at all.

For me, SR is a set of rules and that let my groups explore and experience the stories we create. Have fun with it!

[ravensmuse]

Blah blah blah things were better in the old days blah blah blah.

Many runners work for reasons other than money. Of course there are better options out there - the world doesn't operate solely by shadowrunning. Heck, Winterhawk is a retired runner / academic! Everything from revenge to political leanings to need to the thrill of the challenge...

There are many ways to run 4e SR, and the gritty, living moment by moment theme is but one of them. Not one that I want to run, personally; my current campaign ideas involve a Hawai'ian great sea dragon waking up and reclaiming its territory, the personal assassin for an ambitious fashion editor, and various one shots involving small jobs. Each of these are equally shadowrun-esque plots, with pcs brought in for various reasons other than sticking it to The Man.

Punk punk PUNK is just one single layer in a multi-layered game and claiming that SR has devolved into a "shooting people in the face for money" game is doing everyone involved in every edition of SR a great disservice. To act as though suddenly it suddenly has is like listening to people whine that music just isn't the same any more, man.

Y'know, man?

[TheForgotten]

The accepted payrate is $2,500 per Karma awarded + % of monthly living cost (Average Lifestyle of Group / Number of runs a month) + reasonable expenses (or enough loot to cover that) *PER* runner.

So if the average Karma award is 4, the runners do 4 runs a month, and their average lifestyle is High, each of them should net around $12,500 per run after expenses.

Can you give me a page quote from this. I'm going mainly off the opening fict in the BBB (team does a run for 6K) and the Mr. Johnson section of Companion (paying a team 5k). My point is that the pay in SR4 seems to be stupidly low, even for the lower skill levels found in 4th ed.

For example think of a team with 4 magicians, one adept and one technomancer. A team running to one extreme like that might not be the most rounded, but I don't see them getting bottom of the barrel jobs either.

[Crusher Bob]

There is no page reference for that. It is the distilled wisdom of Dumpshock, hashed out over the aleph-one threads that have discussed runner payments in the past. Note said rule of thumb specifically applied to SR4.

[Draco18s]

aleph-one threads

Wait. More threads than there are integers?

[Lindt]

Its all in how your game gets run. I pay my players more, because I expect them to spend more during the course of the run.
Well, and it avg's out for the runs that don't pay, or end up being a loss.

[TheForgotten]

There is no page reference for that. It is the distilled wisdom of Dumpshock, hashed out over the aleph-one threads that have discussed runner payments in the past. Note said rule of thumb specifically applied to SR4.

Well those numbers sounds about right. Problem is there's no supporting evidence for them in 4th ed, and their is supporting evidence for 5000 nuyen/team. At that level running is a (possibly fatal) extreme sport that generates a little nuyen on the side, not a valid career path. 4th ed seems a bit to focused on a street level game (which also makes character creation a royal mess).

[Phylos Fett]

The accepted payrate is $2,500 per Karma awarded + % of monthly living cost (Average Lifestyle of Group / Number of runs a month) + reasonable expenses (or enough loot to cover that) *PER* runner.

So if the average Karma award is 4, the runners do 4 runs a month, and their average lifestyle is High, each of them should net around $12,500 per run after expenses.

A run a week is a little taxing on the body, contacts, gear, etc., isn't it?

[Fix-it]

I haven't read the rest of this thread; but may I point out (or reiterate) that all those jobs listed are the purveyance of organized crime, such as gangs, the mob/Triads/SonsofTheNeonCrysanthemum. they will not like it when you start doing their scams, on their turf.

[Warlordtheft]

I've been running mine on the scale of what is the danger factor. Pay has been 5,000 nuyen for simple body guard work, to 25,000 for a search and rescue. However that is each.

My pay is based on time involved and risk to the runners (from their fixers point of view who sets up the meet). The initial meet is where they negotiate price. Lowest paying run was 1,000 nuyen a day job to investigate an assasination attemp. The group felt they were a little out of their leagu and decided the 20,000 nuyen bonus for "solving the problem" was not worth tangling with a Sons of Sauron hit squad. Oh well...next plot line, though one PC got a contact BTL dealer out of it for a special request he made (a three week BTL binge on Neil the Ork Barbarian for the ganger they interogated).

[Crusher Bob]

Since I'm feeling wordy today, I'll list some of the analysis that generated those numbers:

1
The marginal utility of karma and nuyen to advance your character depends on your character type. So, for example, a mage or certain adept builds can basically advance quite far in a karma only rewards game; while mundane characters are basically at the top of their (karma) game out of character creation.
A samurai with 6 million still has the firearms skill of 6 he started the game with; a mage with 6 million karma has a magic rating OVER 9000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) . A street sam with 6 million Y has delta-synaptic III (or whatever); a pure mage with 6 million Y has a nice beach house somewhere.
So, there should be a balance between karma and Y rewards that balances the advancement of both mages and mundanes.

2 The costs of living

2a
The fake SIN tax.
Different styles of games require different amounts of disposable equipment. For example, how often do your characters change fake SINs, drop weapons and other equipment, replace damaged armor, etc? Depending on the style of game, there may be none of this, or it may happen every game. Because there is not a default style of play here, the default pay cannot be fixed, but instead must take into account these expenses.

2b
The lifestyle tax.
Just as different games have different levels of expected expenses, different games also have different run frequencies. So a game that generates a run every in game month will 'tax' lifestyle costs less than a game that generates a run only every 3 in-game months.

2c
Since the expected Y rewards listed in part 1 are solely for character advancement (for example, buying new cyberware) the average pay estimates must also include calculations for the cost of living, based on the assumptions of that particular game table.

4
Lastly, what combination of karma and Y seems to equally reward both magical and mundane characters?
The 2,500 Y per karma point is based on the BP conversion:
1 BP = 5,000 Y
1 BP ~~ 2 karma

So payments should look like:
~2,500 Y per point of karma awarded, net deductions for the expenses

If you want to run a street level game, limit BP in character generation and limit both karma and Y rewards. Limiting Y rewards while still handing out the normal amount of karma just leaves mages laughing all the way to the bloody sacrificial altar.

[InfinityzeN]

If anything, your actually better in a game slanted more towards money then karma rather then the other way around (from the suggest rate that is). In fact, late game when the Samy has to go to Delta grade to get any better that little $25,000 he gets from a 10 karma run will help him a lot less then then 10 karma will help a magic user. My game started at the $2.5k per Karma but has progressed to closer to $5k per Karma.

[kzt]

2) Damn right it pays more than 1500 a week. They also have to WANT you to work for them. And honestly, working for the mob shouldn't be an unreasonable goal for low-rent runners. I mean, seriously... get made, and you're MADE, you know?

It's a goal. But it's hard. There was something like 60-80 made men in the Chicago Outfit in 1997.

[Draco18s]

Since I'm feeling wordy today, I'll list some of the analysis that generated those numbers:

1
The marginal utility of karma and nuyen to advance your character depends on your character type. So, for example, a mage or certain adept builds can basically advance quite far in a karma only rewards game; while mundane characters are basically at the top of their (karma) game out of character creation.

Hence why our games turned into average karma (5-10 per mission depending on how many sessions it took,* plus every player gives out "two nods"** each worth 1 karma each to the player they nominate for a named action) + high cash games with the rule that if you donate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 5000 to an organization that makes sense for your character you get 1 karma. For a mage that might be MIT&T, a street sam might donate to a martial arts studio, and a toxic spirit shaman would donate to the local land fill.

*So far it's about 3 to 4 karma average per session plus nods.

**The GM has also given nods, though rare. The last one was to me, 4 karma for "ruining my life" (i.e. my legal sin is now a criminal sin, so he gave me a partial refund over what it would take to buy that flaw off--notably I'd taken the flaw, made it an asset, then intentionally ruined my life, that flaw is now an actual flaw, and I can live with that).