Area of Effect Spells, How about something other than a circle? Options

[Wombat]

I'm tired of only ever seeing point shots and circular group shots. There has got to be a way to shape a spell's area of effect. Has anyone seen or heard of a way of doing this, such as a Shaping Metamagic?

[TheOOB]

Cannon I cannot think of anything, though it would be really easily to create a spell(or a metamagic) that allows the spell to take any shape you wish inside the area.

Spheres just kinda make sense. A sphere is what you get when you take all points the same distance from a central point.

[Wombat]

I get what you're saying about the sphere, but say you wanted to fill a hallway with the same volume of Fire as a spherical Fireball spell? How would you go about setting up the mechanics? Would you House rule it and make it an option for all spellcasters, or would you make it a Metamagic that had to be learned?

[Shinobi Killfist]

I wish there were some AoE spells other than spheres. Its been 4 editions and magic has basically added a couple metamagics but otherwise stayed the same, and most if not all of the new metamagics showed up in 3e.

Would it have been that hard to design cone and line AoE spells.

Or
autofire spells.
sustained combat spells.
multitarget spells. Something like a mask spell that effects a # of targets equal to the force of the spell, so you don't have to run around with -10 to all your dice while trying to mask the team.

[Wombat]

Would it have been that hard to design cone and line AoE spells.

Or
autofire spells.
sustained combat spells.
multitarget spells. Something like a mask spell that effects a # of targets equal to the force of the spell, so you don't have to run around with -10 to all your dice while trying to mask the team.

How would you go about making some mechanics for cones or line AoE spells? Perhaps we can simply reconfigure the area of the circle and keep (Force) meters in height? Also shortening 3.14x(Force)meters squared to 3[(Force)meters squared]. Any thoughts on 3[(Force)meters squared] for the AoE of a shaped spell?

I'm not sure what you mean by autofire spells.

Sustained combat spells seem a lot like DOT spells, which I think should probably stay in EQ, WoW, and other MMORPG's. Nothing really against the idea itself, just that I think it's something that doesn't really add to the storytelling aspect of a tabletop game.

Multitarget spells I can certainly agree with though. Perhaps being able to simply split your successes by up to your Force over multiple targets. I can certainly see that as a viable Metamagic.

[TheForgotten]

I wish there were some AoE spells other than spheres. Its been 4 editions and magic has basically added a couple metamagics but otherwise stayed the same, and most if not all of the new metamagics showed up in 3e.

Would it have been that hard to design cone and line AoE spells.

Or
autofire spells.
sustained combat spells.
multitarget spells. Something like a mask spell that effects a # of targets equal to the force of the spell, so you don't have to run around with -10 to all your dice while trying to mask the team.

Start rolling against Arcana. Suggest you check the rules for rushing the job. The only thing I see that would be a problem to make under current rules are autofire spells. Probably going to need some kind of physical manipulation for that.

[Dashifen]

How would you go about making some mechanics for cones or line AoE spells?

Line is easier; most of the environmental combat spells, for example, seem like they could easily target everyone in a line (e.g., a lightning bolt that hits everyone in a row). Just up the drain value by 2 or so and call it even. You could do it for other spells, too, like Influencing everyone going down the bar but no one else in the room.

Cones are a little harder, but I'd just apply a higher drain code and a penalty to dodge out of the area of effect similar to the choke rules on Shotguns.

[Dakka Dakka]

multitarget spells. Something like a mask spell that effects a # of targets equal to the force of the spell, so you don't have to run around with -10 to all your dice while trying to mask the team.

Invisibilty for the whole group would be possible according to RAW, there wouldn't even be a restriction to the number of targets, only the area is limited.

For the physical version however, you would "have to" use restricted target to make it work as intended. Without it you would create a sphere of nothingness. The restriction would even be advisable for the normal version, if you want to cast it in a natural i.e. living environment.

Cones and lines however would have to be houseruled.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Invisibilty for the whole group would be possible according to RAW, there wouldn't even be a restriction to the number of targets, only the area is limited.

For the physical version however, you would "have to" use restricted target to make it work as intended. Without it you would create a sphere of nothingness. The restriction would even be advisable for the normal version, if you want to cast it in a natural i.e. living environment.

Cones and lines however would have to be houseruled.

The problem comes when you want to move the invisible field or masked field. Unless there is an errata I missed moving an AoE on sustained spells requires a complex action, and there may be more penalties I can't remember. You are giving up the -10 sustaining penalty for a -2 sustaining penalty and exclusive action unless you are standing still.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Start rolling against Arcana. Suggest you check the rules for rushing the job. The only thing I see that would be a problem to make under current rules are autofire spells. Probably going to need some kind of physical manipulation for that.

There is an express no for sustained combat spells so Arcana will not help with that. Lines and cones if your DM is willing sure, but they are being made up whole cloth. Personally I'd steal from the hero system for them. All there primary AoE spells are a +1 advantage. Size is usually based on AP/X. So there radius AoE on a 60AP(before advantage) would by a 6 hex radius(12 meters). Seems a close parallel to the 1 meter radius per force. They make a cone 1 hex on a side per 5 AP or 2 per 10. So in SR terms at the 2 per 10 stage it would be a 2 meter on a side cone per force. Lines would be 4 meters long per force, there variable area would be fill 1 meter radius for ever 10 points so a 6 force spell would fill 6 separate 1 meter areas shaped as you want. For drain I'd keep the standard drain mod for area of effects, on the variable area ones I'd make it express that you have to see each meter you are targeting to fill.

For the cone and lines it seems kind of big so I might say it has to be touch range or the area is halved.

[pbangarth]

There are Manipulation spells, such as the various "Wall..." spells that are for all intents and purposes sustained Combat spells.

[Muspellsheimr]

I have already designed alternate spell areas for my expanded/errata'd house spell-design rules, but have not yet gotten around to compiling them.

Such include:

Sphere: As the book. +2 Drain.
Line: 1m x 1m, Force x 5m Length, originating from caster. +2 Drain.
Chain: Up to Force targets. Caster must be able to see each target, & they must be within Force meters of each other. +2 Drain.

I am still concerned that Chain would be to powerful, as it gives the power of an Area effect with the versatility of a single-target spell. Personally, I doubt I would ever take a Sphere or Single-Target version of a spell if it was available. Increasing the Drain to +3 might work, but any higher than that would make it unusable.

[Maelstrome]

three cheers for chain lightning and inferno.

[TheOOB]

Area spells can hit way more targets then chain spells, but I'd agree chain spells are a little powerful, it's just like casting (force) single target spells, thats +4 drain at least in my book.

[Dakka Dakka]

The problem comes when you want to move the invisible field or masked field. Unless there is an errata I missed moving an AoE on sustained spells requires a complex action, and there may be more penalties I can't remember. You are giving up the -10 sustaining penalty for a -2 sustaining penalty and exclusive action unless you are standing still.

First of all, there are no exclusive actions in SR4. Complex action =/= exclusive action because the mage can still have multiple IPs an as such can do other things besides moving the AoE. Sustained spells can conciously be moved by the caster with a complex action, but for a mass invisibility/mask spell this is not necessary. The spell stays with its targets. So it is indeed a single -2 for the whole party and all other valid targets in the area of effect.

An actual field of invisibility is achieved more easily with the (trid)phantasm spell. Just create an illusion of the normal scene minus the things you wish to hide.

[Wombat]

Line: 1m x 1m, Force x 5m Length, originating from caster. +2 Drain.
Chain: Up to Force targets. Caster must be able to see each target, & they must be within Force meters of each other. +2 Drain.

I am still concerned that Chain would be to powerful, as it gives the power of an Area effect with the versatility of a single-target spell. Personally, I doubt I would ever take a Sphere or Single-Target version of a spell if it was available. Increasing the Drain to +3 might work, but any higher than that would make it unusable.

At the measurement of 1m x 1m, Force x 5m Length, the Line's volume is far below that of the Sphere. Given the lesser area, compared to its linear reach, I'd say the DV equivalent to the standard Sphere is fair.

As for the Chain spell though, I'm completely against it. Especially since it is really just multicasting at a lower DV. Cinematics could allow a multicast Lightning Bolt appear as your classic Chain Lightning spell, while ignoring the maximum distance between targets. The issue is that the RAW multiple-increased DV's and spellcasting skill limits are circumvented by this kind of proposed AoE.

I ran some numbers for Cone AoE's and I think they're totally doable, particularly for Indirect Combat spells. They'd have a Length of Forcex4 meters and an end width of Forcex2 meters, originating from caster. It could apply a -2 dice pool modifier on the target's defense roll.

Sustained spells can conciously be moved by the caster with a complex action, but for a mass invisibility/mask spell this is not necessary. The spell stays with its targets. So it is indeed a single -2 for the whole party and all other valid targets in the area of effect. All for the measly Drain modifier of...the standard +2 for AoE, as the volume is nearly the same.

An actual field of invisibility is achieved more easily with the (trid)phantasm spell. Just create an illusion of the normal scene minus the things you wish to hide.

Only single target spells stay on their target. As I understand it, the position of all AoE effects are relative to the Earth in the same way that wards are. The only difference is that the caster can move the effect to anywhere within line of sight with a Complex Action. And you're right about the Trid Phantasm spell, our groups abuse the hell out of that thing. It's better than a large-scale holo-projector.

[Dakka Dakka]

Could you please give a quote, that says AoE spells don't stay on target. The probelm is that there are no similar spells in either the BBB or Street Magic. Personally I couldn't say that such spells would be against any fundamental law of SR Magic.

[Muspellsheimr]

Area of Effect targets, get this, an area. They affect what is in the area, but do not target it.

[Dakka Dakka]

Area of Effect targets, get this, an area. They affect what is in the area, but do not target it.

And how do you define object or persons in the area? The word target comes to mind. If you modify the (improved) invisibility spell with LOS(A) and restricted target (metahumans), it does what the description of the invisibility spell says to all metahumans in the area.
I can't see which rule would forbid this. Even if there were such a rule, you could still use such a spell as invisibility sphere. The targets just have to stay near the caster, and the caster could not move faster than his running rate.

[Wombat]

Could you please give a quote, that says AoE spells don't stay on target. The probelm is that there are no similar spells in either the BBB or Street Magic. Personally I couldn't say that such spells would be against any fundamental law of SR Magic.

p.173, SR4
"Some spells target areas or points in space;in this case the caster must be able to see the center of the area affected. All visible targets within the area are affected; area spells can affect more than one target at a time."

p.174, SR4
"If an area-effect spell is sustained, the affected area may be moved with a Complex Action, as long as it remains within line of sight. Characters who 'drop out' of the affected area are no longer affected by the spell; characters who are 'enveloped' by the area must defend against the effects of the spell as appropriate."

[Dakka Dakka]

OK, no mass invisibility then. invisibility sphere is fine though.

[Prime Mover]

I remember donut and lance versions of spells from the old Kage issues. Always thought Shaping metamagic would make sense for recreating these effects in 4thed.

IE Manaball->Manalance or Manadonut.

[Dashifen]

mmmmmmmmm .... manadonut ....... </homer>

[The Jopp]

I have a few ideas of AOE that has the same drain cost as AOE but works a little different.

Nexus
A nexus AOE centers on the caster and blooms outwards. The caster is unaffected as the spell generates a short distance from his/her aura (Mostly used with elemental AOE spells)

Fan
The Fan is basically a 90 degree blast that goes from the caster and extends out from the caster.

[Dakka Dakka]

I have a few ideas of AOE that has the same drain cost as AOE but works a little different.

Nexus
A nexus AOE centers on the caster and blooms outwards. The caster is unaffected as the spell generates (Mostly used with elemental AOE spells)

This would contradict fundamental laws of SR Magic. With the exception of indirect combat spells, you cannot affect targets you cannot see.

Fan
The Fan is basically a 90 degree blast that goes from the caster and extends out from the caster.

Which length and height?