Casting behind Cover, Do spells hit targets behind cover? Options

[Hankinstien]

If a target is behind "good cover," does that kill LOS for spells? I wouldn't imagine so, since you can still shoot a gun at them and get a -4 for the cover, but it's not treated as blind fire. Just want to be sure.

I apologize if this is in the book somewhere and I just missed it...

[Apathy]

Cover and concealment are two different things. Subject can stand behind armored plexiglass and have cover, but no concealment, while standing behind a curtain offers concealment but no cover. The first situation gives protection from bullets but no protection from direct combat spells, while the second provides protection from direct damage spells because it effects visibility even though it wouldn't stop a bullet.

If the target has part of their body obscured behind a bush, wall, or cardboard box, the caster should have a -2, -4, or -6 to their TN, based on how much of their body is hidden.

The harder part of the question for me is how to address aura bleed-through. If you wrap some guy up in a bedsheet so that he is completely covered, his aura is still extending beyond the sheet even though his physical body is hidden. Can he be targeted? How thick does his cover need to be to act as cover?

[pbangarth]

Cover and concealment are two different things. Subject can stand behind armored plexiglass and have cover, but no concealment, while standing behind a curtain offers concealment but no cover. The first situation gives protection from bullets but no protection from direct combat spells, while the second provides protection from direct damage spells because it effects visibility even though it wouldn't stop a bullet.

If the target has part of their body obscured behind a bush, wall, or cardboard box, the caster should have a -2, -4, or -6 to their TN, based on how much of their body is hidden.

The harder part of the question for me is how to address aura bleed-through. If you wrap some guy up in a bedsheet so that he is completely covered, his aura is still extending beyond the sheet even though his physical body is hidden. Can he be targeted? How thick does his cover need to be to act as cover?

Well, if he could not be targeted, then neither could the security guard in full armor.

[Adarael]

If a dude is plainly visible in the outline of flexible material, assume you can slam him with spells. Much like a dude in full armor can still be cast at. Anything less starts to border on the silly.

[TBRMInsanity]

Teh he:

Magic armour:
Description = A white sheet with two holes for the eyes.
Effects = Can't be targeted by LOS spells
Cost = (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 10

Wow what a gross munchkining of the rules.

All silliness aside I agree that if the cover obscures the view and is detached from the target (ie a box he/she is crouching behind) then cover modifiers should be used to represent the difficulty to verify the target mentally. Otherwise the aura of the target projects through the "cover" and as such provides no cover from LOS spells.

[Apathy]

It's hard to define exactly where the break point is, though.

Say I've got a big steel box. This box is just large enough for a dwarf to fit in if he curls up, and has walls that - while rigid and non-deforming - are only a fraction of an inch thick. Since the box is opaque, and non-deforming, I can't tell looking from the outside with my physical eyes whether there's a dwarf in there or not. But if the dwarf's aura extends several inches beyond his body I might be able to see parts of his aura poking out of the box (assuming I can use astral perception).

• Does the aura poke out?
• If not - why not?
• Why would we say that an aura extends beyond Full Body Armor that may be an inch thick or more if it can't extend beyond an eighth of an inch of steel in the box walls?

[BlueMax]

Teh he:

Magic armour:
Description = A white sheet with two holes for the eyes.
Effects = Can't be targeted by LOS spells
Cost = (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 10

Wow what a gross munchkining of the rules.

All silliness aside I agree that if the cover obscures the view and is detached from the target (ie a box he/she is crouching behind) then cover modifiers should be used to represent the difficulty to verify the target mentally. Otherwise the aura of the target projects through the "cover" and as such provides no cover from LOS spells.

I was wondering on how Humanis could keep going so long and strong.

BlueMax

[Heath Robinson]

Teh he:

Magic armour:
Description = A white sheet with two holes for the eyes.
Effects = Can't be targeted by LOS spells
Cost = (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 10

Wow what a gross munchkining of the rules.

Yet people were arguing for just this in the "Powerball everything" thread. If powerball hits every object on the target, then not being visible means that you're immune to at least 1 powerball.

[Adarael]

It's hard to define exactly where the break point is, though.

Say I've got a big steel box. This box is just large enough for a dwarf to fit in if he curls up, and has walls that - while rigid and non-deforming - are only a fraction of an inch thick. Since the box is opaque, and non-deforming, I can't tell looking from the outside with my physical eyes whether there's a dwarf in there or not. But if the dwarf's aura extends several inches beyond his body I might be able to see parts of his aura poking out of the box (assuming I can use astral perception).

• Does the aura poke out?
• If not - why not?
• Why would we say that an aura extends beyond Full Body Armor that may be an inch thick or more if it can't extend beyond an eighth of an inch of steel in the box walls?

Dude is immune, in my book. Why? Because he is immobile. As soon as people start being able to MOVE in their little no-magic boxes, I start to go, "No, people can zap you." There's no rationale there other than "don't be a douche", though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Armor is worn, like clothing. You don't wear a box like clothing unless you can move in it - you just happen to be IN the box.

[Draco18s]

So. That guy, in that room, over there, the one without windows. He's a valid target?

[Kanada Ten]

Doesn't cover (lighting, rain, smoke, runnning, etc) affect the caster's dice pool in the same manner as a gunner?

[BlueMax]

So. That guy, in that room, over there, the one without windows. He's a valid target?

Are you certain he is there?

[Apathy]

Certainty that he's there shouldn't factor in. You can be certain someone is there using ultrasound or radar, but still not be able to target.

[Adarael]

So. That guy, in that room, over there, the one without windows. He's a valid target?

Unless he's wearing the room and the room is walking around with him, no. Way to shoot past the mark.

In a nutshell, this is the issue:
Being completely covered in clothing or armor CANNOT by itself, under any circumstance, render you immune to magic.

The reason for this is that if it could, it would be universal. All security guards, everywhere, would wear full covering clothing and armor. And furthermore, it would be mentioned that this is the case. This is the quivalent of "Eating broccoli makes you immune to bullets" - there wouldn't be any security professional anywhere that wouldnt, just because it would make corporate insurance cheaper if they did.

[TBRMInsanity]

Yet people were arguing for just this in the "Powerball everything" thread. If powerball hits every object on the target, then not being visible means that you're immune to at least 1 powerball.

In that case I would say that the area effect of powerball would effect people within the blast zone but not visible. ie If I target the spell at visible target "A" and invisible target "B" happens to also be in the blast zone, then "B" will also have to resist the spell as per the rules.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Doesn't cover (lighting, rain, smoke, runnning, etc) affect the caster's dice pool in the same manner as a gunner?

Yes.

It gets weird though, when only one of several targets is causing the spellcaster's dice pool to be lowered. Does the spellcaster roll multiple times? Does he need to roll 4 dice separately to accout for the people without cover? If the first roll is a glitch, but the extra 4 dice remove the glitch then what happens?

This is one of the more valid complaints about the SR4 system - certain mods like cover and concealment should add to the defender's dice pool instead of taking away from the attacker's. That would allow things like a guy with cover being harder to shoot without causing the shooter's gun to be more likely to jam (glitch.)

[Wombat]

You could just call for a Perception check and apply visibility modifiers, or increase the Perception check's threshold. If the caster makes it, he can target the guy.

[Heath Robinson]

In that case I would say that the area effect of powerball would effect people within the blast zone but not visible. ie If I target the spell at visible target "A" and invisible target "B" happens to also be in the blast zone, then "B" will also have to resist the spell as per the rules.

That, my friend, is the forte of indirect spells. Powerball is direct.

This is why I advocated the concept that the aura covers small items lying close to the skin and renders them untargetable. Because the other way of doing it means that corproate security wears layer upon layer of white sheets to reduce their vulnerability to combat spells. Which is stupid.

[Shinobi Killfist]

It's hard to define exactly where the break point is, though.

Say I've got a big steel box. This box is just large enough for a dwarf to fit in if he curls up, and has walls that - while rigid and non-deforming - are only a fraction of an inch thick. Since the box is opaque, and non-deforming, I can't tell looking from the outside with my physical eyes whether there's a dwarf in there or not. But if the dwarf's aura extends several inches beyond his body I might be able to see parts of his aura poking out of the box (assuming I can use astral perception).

• Does the aura poke out?
• If not - why not?
• Why would we say that an aura extends beyond Full Body Armor that may be an inch thick or more if it can't extend beyond an eighth of an inch of steel in the box walls?

While its hard to define if people want to try and break the rules, I'd say the easy definition is that you have to be able to sync the aura to part of the body's shape. A box, no he can't be targeted, its like he is in a car with tinted windows, but once the object surrounding them conforms a bit to there body like a sheet would you can sync the aura to the target and blast away. But hey there are always indirect spells for the box people.

[Draco18s]

Unless he's wearing the room and the room is walking around with him, no. Way to shoot past the mark.

In a nutshell, this is the issue:
Being completely covered in clothing or armor CANNOT by itself, under any circumstance, render you immune to magic.

Then the initial Guy In The Box is immune. He's not wearing the box, he just can't move. Making the box bigger (so he can move around in it) has no effect on his targetability.

Which, in theory, makes a Brain in a Jar rigging a drone immune to mana spells as well (for the first case: how do you know his brain is IN the bot? In the second, even if it is, he himself can not move and is completely encased in metal).

[TonkaTuff]

I've always found the easiest way to handle this situation is to look at how the average, non-pedantic person would describe the situation. Is the potential target wearing the obscuring object or are they inside/behind the obscuring object? In the former case, the vast majority of onlookers would consider the clothing/armor/ghost costume as part of the holistic entity of "that guy over there", and would conceptualize it as a single object. In the latter case, the most common perception would be that of two discrete, if related, objects (that guy behind the curtain, that box with a guy in it, etc.), and the intent of the object as cover is fairly obvious. It's not even really about mobility or the lack thereof.

And, yeah, Jarheads do throw a bit of a wrench into the works. Technically and conceptually, they are a "box with a guy in it" - rendering the "guy" part largely immune to a lot of different magic effects (direct combat spells, most health spells, mana-based illusion spells, and many of the mental manipulation spells). Though, honestly, the rules don't actually require the brain to physically be inside of the box at all (with remote networks and everything), so it's really not that different from simply dealing with any other drone with a hidden rigger or someone in a car.

Of course, you'll almost invariably end up with the sort of person who says their character (virtually unique on the planet) considers the target to be wearing the (box/curtain/robot body/whatever), so they should be able to target him directly. But that's why they make hardcover game manuals and/or the /boot command.

[TBRMInsanity]

That, my friend, is the forte of indirect spells. Powerball is direct.

Sure powerball is a direct spell. It is directed at the main target. If someone is unlucky enough to be hidden in the indirect fallout of the spell that is their fault.

[The Jopp]

Sure powerball is a direct spell. It is directed at the main target. If someone is unlucky enough to be hidden in the indirect fallout of the spell that is their fault.

Direct spells can ONLY target people in their DIRECT line of sight.

The first powerball will destroy everything IN SIGHT and expose the hidden person.

By allowing hidden people to be hit by a powerball you essentially removes the need and effectiveness of elemental AOE spells - spells that already have a secondary place due to their high drain code.

If you want to hit people who hide just send in a mid/low force fireball. Burning people tend to panic...

[gobogen]

Burning people tend to panic...

Although, I've never seen anyone on fire, or been on fire myself, I can believe that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And now to add nothing of value to this discussion, here's a lolcat who doesn't get hit by powerballs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Adarael]

Then the initial Guy In The Box is immune. He's not wearing the box, he just can't move. Making the box bigger (so he can move around in it) has no effect on his targetability.

Which, in theory, makes a Brain in a Jar rigging a drone immune to mana spells as well (for the first case: how do you know his brain is IN the bot? In the second, even if it is, he himself can not move and is completely encased in metal).

Actually, yes, that's what I just said: "Dude is immune, in my book. Why? Because he is immobile. As soon as people start being able to MOVE in their little no-magic boxes, I start to go, "No, people can zap you."

Once you start being able to move around and move your box with you, I start to count the box as clothing. It may be box-shaped clothing, but it's still worn. I think you mistook my "moving around" comment to meaning making the box big enough to move around IN, rather than "guy moving around wearing the box like clothes."

And no, you can't use mana direct combat spells on cyborgs - the brain is small enough that they are considered to be piloting their own machine 'bodies'.