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> [Real Life] New Underbarrel Entry Shotgun, New Prototype from US Dept. of Energy
RunnerPaul
post Jan 10 2004, 01:11 PM
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Here's an article that I think all the gunbunnies out there (you know who you are) will enjoy:

When Seconds Count: Idaho Integrated Breaching Shotgun

It's a prototype underbarrel shotgun developed by the US Department of Energy's Idaho National Engineering and Environmental Laboratory.

Read and enjoy. :D
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Siege
post Jan 10 2004, 01:21 PM
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QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
Here's an article that I think all the gunbunnies out there (you know who you are) will enjoy:

When Seconds Count: Idaho Integrated Breaching Shotgun

It's a prototype underbarrel shotgun developed by the US Department of Energy's Idaho National Engineering and Environmental Laboratory.

Read and enjoy. :D

Fascinating -- although they overlooked the rule requiring all new weapons systems to be hideously expensive and generally bloated all around. :grinbig:

-Siege
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Ancient History
post Jan 10 2004, 02:05 PM
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That's not new. The French produced an underbarrel shotgun for a pistol sold to the Union during the Civil War.

Looks flash, though.
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Modesitt
post Jan 10 2004, 02:55 PM
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Under barrel shotguns aren't a new concept. There's an m16 variant known as the masterkey that incorporates an underbarrel shotgun.

One Random Source of Many: Link

QUOTE ("The Pertinent Part")
The M-4 Series was specifically designed to allow it to mount the M-203 Grenade Launcher, in keeping with this design theme even more weapons have been mated to the design. The 40mm grenade launcher is a common sight to be found on the M-4, many special operations types prefer having the extra bit of firepower along on a mission. Aside from the M-203 grenade launcher a cut-down Remington Model 870P has been mounted to the underside of the M-4, dubbed the "Masterkey" it is a popular weapon for Close Quarters Combat. The Masterkey owes much of it's original design to early weapons designs in the 1980's in which cutdown shotguns were mounted to the underside of AR-15 rifles. Changes were however made, it is felt that a long barrel was not advantageous to the mission requirements of those would be using the weapon. Instead it was felt that a 10.0 inch barrel would be best for the up close combat that it would be used for, no provisions are made for a handgrip for the shotgun. It is fired as one would use the M-203 grenade launcher.

The effect is to allow the user of the M-4 great flexibility for being able to choose a weapon suited to their mission requirements, the M-203 for firepower in small package .
Or choosing the Remington for the ability to fire a wide variety of shells aside from the obvious double ought buckshot and sabot slugs.


There's also THIS army.mil link talking about it being fielded in Afghanistan.

THIS page has links to a Shadowrun thing with lots of new, mostly overpowered guns. Several of them incorporate underbarrel shotguns, but no accessory.

Shadowrun-wise, gut says to make it 8S, 2 kgs, 2 rounds manual, -1 or -2 conceal, firing mode is SS(The defiance T-250 is SA and an autoloader, a pump ought to be SS).

I'd think this through more, but I've other things that need my attention.

Edit'd because I went back over it and noticed not only a broken link, but a double-tap typo! The Horror!
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Siege
post Jan 10 2004, 03:02 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History)
That's not new. The French produced an underbarrel shotgun for a pistol sold to the Union during the Civil War.

Looks flash, though.

The article mentions the US military's model as cumbersome and ungainly, hence the desire to streamline and facilitate the concept.

Not a new concept, but a new approach to the concept.

-Siege
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 10 2004, 03:22 PM
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Forgive me if this is a silly question, but why is this coming from the Department of Energy?

~J
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toturi
post Jan 10 2004, 03:58 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Forgive me if this is a silly question, but why is this coming from the Department of Energy?

~J

Eh... maybe because I think that the Department of Energy has control of USA's nuclear facilites? I'm not use whether NEST is under DOE though.
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 10 2004, 04:03 PM
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That's enough reason for them to be obtaining and deploying them, but I wouldn't think that they'd be developing it...

~J
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toturi
post Jan 10 2004, 04:11 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
That's enough reason for them to be obtaining and deploying them, but I wouldn't think that they'd be developing it...

~J

Well, you know bureacracy... everyone wants a piece of the action.
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Foreigner
post Jan 10 2004, 06:39 PM
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Ancient History:

I may be mistaken, but I believe that the weapon to which you refer is the LeMat revolver, sometimes known as the "LeMat Grapeshot revolver", which was used by CONFEDERATE officers.

Designed by a Confederate officer from Louisiana, the LeMat was a nine-shot single-action percussion ("cap-and-ball") revolver of approximately .42 caliber, with a secondary smoothbore barrel of approximately .69 caliber (roughly the same as the obsolete (since the 1920s) 14-gauge shotgun bore size) which also served as the cylinder's axis pin.

The LeMat design featured a pivoting nose on the hammer: in its normal position, it fired the chambers of the cylinder; moved into the lower position manually after cocking, it was ready to fire the shotgun barrel.

The weapon was a favorite of such noteworthies as General P.G.T. Beauregard, and Major Generals Richard Anderson and J.E.B. "Jeb" Stuart.

Here's a little more information about it: http://www.pride-net.com/january/1998/civilwar/lemats/htm

--Foreigner
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Ancient History
post Jan 10 2004, 06:42 PM
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Ah, I must have confused it with their Union revolver, which had the .50 caliber underbarrel and 10 .30 caliber rounds on the upper. My bad.
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Foreigner
post Jan 10 2004, 06:46 PM
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Ancient History:

Could be. :)

Then again, it's just as likely that there was a Union counterpart to the LeMat of which I was not aware. ;)

--Foreigner
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Siege
post Jan 10 2004, 07:02 PM
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Ya know Kage, I had a similar reaction.

However, I'm going to guess someone who felt the need or perhaps believed in the project decided to bypass the traditional outsourcing and make use of in-house resources.

Just a guess.

-Siege
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Raygun
post Jan 10 2004, 10:43 PM
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Unless they went under DHS with the whole reorganization, NEST is under DOE.

IMO, this thing is a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. Having a guy with a shotgun pop locks or hinges doesn't really waste any time at all, as long as everyone is aware of what's going on. No one needs a longer barrel on an underbarrel shotgun, nor do they need a bunch of rounds. They're primarily used for door breeching, which generally requires three rounds.

It looks also pretty cumbersome, especially on that freakin' MP5 (mostly because of that huge box mag sticking out of it). I don't think it will get very far.

KAC's Masterkey was a better deal, IMHO. Hell, having a Serbu Super Shorty as a backup would be better, I think.
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Phaeton
post Jan 10 2004, 10:49 PM
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....I wonder what the Super Shorty's stats would be for SR...Although a Roomsweeper is of similar concept.
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Zazen
post Jan 10 2004, 10:56 PM
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QUOTE (Raygun)
IMO, this thing is a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. Having a guy with a shotgun pop locks or hinges doesn't really waste any time at all, as long as everyone is aware of what's going on. No one needs a longer barrel on an underbarrel shotgun, nor do they need a bunch of rounds. They're primarily used for door breeching, which generally requires three rounds.

People really shoot door hinges? I always thought that was an action flick kind of move, figuring that bullets/pellets/whatever could potentially ricochet around and hit people.

Can you tell me more about how they do it, who does it, and the problems involved?
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Fresno Bob
post Jan 10 2004, 10:57 PM
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Except the roomsweeper holds a crapload of ammo, and uses Heavy Pistol ammo, I think.

I have it under the nonexistant weapons list in my games. Along with the AVS! Oooh!
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Phaeton
post Jan 10 2004, 10:58 PM
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Yeah. But I want a shotgun with Heavy/Light Pistol conceal, shotgun damages, and is a pump/semi-auto, not a fraggin' Eichiro Hatamoto I.
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Fresno Bob
post Jan 10 2004, 10:59 PM
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QUOTE (Zazen)
Can you tell me more about how they do it, who does it, and the problems involved?


er, yeah.. The SWAT team does it. They use rounds that are made of powdered metal, fired from a ported barrel to keep pressure down. Anyway, they put the barrel directly on the hinge and pow. No wait, thats how they destroy locks. They use explosive charges on hinges.
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Phaeton
post Jan 10 2004, 11:02 PM
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Nothing quite beats a brick of C4 for when you don't care what's behind the door or how big your entryway is, though. :grinbig:
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Siege
post Jan 10 2004, 11:22 PM
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It's either that or using small explosive charges on the hinges -- but I think the logic runs, "It's easier to take advantage of current training to use shotguns rather than teach them to use small amounts of C-4."

-Siege
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FlakJacket
post Jan 11 2004, 01:03 AM
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QUOTE (Phaeton)
....I wonder what the Super Shorty's stats would be for SR...Although a Roomsweeper is of similar concept.

Best guess,

Model: Serbu Super-shorty
Gauge: 12
Range: Light Pistol
Conceal: 3*
Ammo: 2 magazine
Mode: SS
Damage: 8S- to reflect the shortened barrel, possibly even a fair bit less
Weight: 2.4 kg
Availability: -
Cost: 675 ¥

*+1 Conceal when stock is folded
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Phaeton
post Jan 11 2004, 01:19 AM
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...Stock? What stock? All it has is a foregrip that folds...And I think the conceal would be a LOT bigger judging the size of the pistolgrip compared to the size of a human hand. And didn't it say three shots in the magazine as well as a fourth in the chamber?

...Sorry to be a nitpicky barstard. :D
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toturi
post Jan 11 2004, 01:47 AM
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It is easy to misjudge the proper amount of C4 to use. By the way, personally, I've never seen anyone use C4 to do the doors but I've seen people use Detcord.
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FlakJacket
post Jan 11 2004, 01:51 AM
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Stock? Ack! Meant to say foregrip. :D On the concealability, I looked at a couple pictures and it seemed to be roughly the same size as a lot of submachine guns so I put it in that general category with a rating of three. As for the magazine size... there seems to be some disagreement between sites. There is a 20 gauge version of the weapon though so that might be what you mean.

Plus since the thing is so small, I'd also probably consider hitting it with an increase in recoil penalties, taking it up to a +2TN after the first shot rather than the normal +1. But since it's a SS gun that's academic, unless you play it that pump-action shotguns are classed as SA weapons.
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