Best place to legally get SR books?, Who has the best price? Options

[TBRMInsanity]

I only have the SR4 and Street Magic books for 4th ed and I would like to get the rest but I'm tight on cash so I want to find a legit way of getting the PDFs for as cheap as possible. If I buy in USD then I can get ok prices at Drive Thru RPG but they are still outside what I'm willing to pay for a PDF. Does anyone know of any deals out there?

[Backgammon]

No, prices are uniform for PDF across all retailers. Not saying that's a policy or anything, but that's how it seems to be.

If you want a deal, try getting second hand physical books from ebay sellers.

[Fix-it]

Stiggybaby supposedly still has a lot of older FASA books in stock. never ordered from them though, so YMMV


EDIT: and that's not what you where asking. way to read the first post, Fix-It. they still have 4e stuff though

[TBRMInsanity]

Now I feel insulted. I can buy the books brand new (non-PDF) for a few dollars more on Amazon. With the currency exchange it is pretty much the same price. Does Catalyst think gamers are idiots? For shame.

[Heath Robinson]

The real worth of the books are what's in them. The extra few dollars are to cover printing and shipping costs and the extra value from being able to take a physical book to the table and have more than one visible at a decent font size at once.

Catalyst doesn't even set the end price directly (though I'm sure they have ways of influencing it).

[Naysayer]

From what I recall, Catalyst doesn't even sell directly through Amazon.
Also, from what I heard (and personal experience seems to validate this) Amazon sometimes seems to pursue a price-policy which, in the proper terminology of the business-world, is I think called "crazy ass bonkers".

[TBRMInsanity]

The real worth of the books are what's in them. The extra few dollars are to cover printing and shipping costs and the extra value from being able to take a physical book to the table and have more than one visible at a decent font size at once.

Catalyst doesn't even set the end price directly (though I'm sure they have ways of influencing it).

Don't feed me that marketing fluff. Even if you go with a cover the losses model of development on the book it would break down something like this:
Average salary per employee: $20/hr or ~$40,000 per year
Number of employees working on the product: 30 people
Average time to produce the product: 6 months
Average total costs: ~$144,000
Average number of products sold: lets be pessimistic and say 10,000 units
Cost per unit: $14.40

At $38 CAN the markup is $23 (a 263% markup).

[Kanada Ten]

RPG Now.com seems to be really cheap (used books perhaps?). No experience with them though.

[Professeur]

Don't feed me that marketing fluff. Even if you go with a cover the losses model of development on the book it would break down something like this:
Average salary per employee: $20/hr or ~$40,000 per year
Number of employees working on the product: 30 people
Average time to produce the product: 6 months
Average total costs: ~$144,000
Average number of products sold: lets be pessimistic and say 10,000 units
Cost per unit: $14.40

At $38 CAN the markup is $23 (a 263% markup).

You don't factor in licensing, printing or shipping. All three can get pretty expensive. Also, it shows that you know nothing of business. Selling a product 38$ when it cost you 14,40$ does not mean "a 263% markup". It means more or less 62% profit margin, which seems big (but not indecent big) but no so much when you consider that it probably cost them more than you think, and that P&P RPGs aren't that big of a market. Plus, you also have to factor in dealer rebate, which ranges typically from 25% to 40%, so their selling price is really at most 28,50$, which translate into a profit margin of 49%. Still not factoring in printing, shipping or licensing.

[tete]

Don't feed me that marketing fluff. Even if you go with a cover the losses model of development on the book it would break down something like this:
Average salary per employee: $20/hr or ~$40,000 per year
Number of employees working on the product: 30 people
Average time to produce the product: 6 months
Average total costs: ~$144,000
Average number of products sold: lets be pessimistic and say 10,000 units
Cost per unit: $14.40

At $38 CAN the markup is $23 (a 263% markup).

Your forgetting the middle men. At leased with guitars the retail prices is about 800% more than the cost. Never worked in the book industry so I don't know their distribution costs.
Lets say fender makes a guitar that cost them (based on similar things to your breakdown) $100, they are going to sell it at the fender distribution warehouse for $200. From there the regional warehouses will buy it and sell it again at $400. A store will now pick it up for $400 and stick on the retail sticker of $800. Large chains like musicians friend will get to buy some product (usually things that are not selling) direct from the distribution warehouse. Then they can mark it at 50% off and move it out the door while still turning a profit.

[TBRMInsanity]

You don't factor in licensing, printing or shipping. All three can get pretty expensive. Also, it shows that you know nothing of business. Selling a product 38$ when it cost you 14,40$ does not mean "a 263% markup". It means more or less 62% profit margin, which seems big (but not indecent big) but no so much when you consider that it probably cost them more than you think, and that P&P RPGs aren't that big of a market. Plus, you also have to factor in dealer rebate, which ranges typically from 25% to 40%, so their selling price is really at most 28,50$, which translate into a profit margin of 49%. Still not factoring in printing, shipping or licensing.

First off I was talking about PDFs. I would fully expect to pay more for printed material because of printing and shipping costs BUT when the PDF costs the SAME as the printed material I feel ripped off, and I should feel ripped off. It is as I pointed out above relativly cheap to produce a professional PDF book and as such you shouldn't have to pay the same price as the printed copy. This just looks like they are discouraging the sale of the PDFs because they fear piracy.

Second I did factor in a relativly small market (10,000 copies expected to be sold).

[Kanada Ten]

If the PDFs were priced too cheaply it would drive down the printed price and sales - causing fewer game stores to carry/display Shadowrun products, resulting in fewer first time buyers of the game, resulting in lower market share, resulting in...

What the PDF cost should be to balance value over effect is difficult to ascertain. Though I agree they're a little high.

[Heath Robinson]

Don't feed me that marketing fluff. Even if you go with a cover the losses model of development on the book it would break down something like this:
Average salary per employee: $20/hr or ~$40,000 per year
Number of employees working on the product: 30 people
Average time to produce the product: 6 months
Average total costs: ~$144,000
Average number of products sold: lets be pessimistic and say 10,000 units
Cost per unit: $14.40

At $38 CAN the markup is $23 (a 263% markup).

You aren't buying these things. These things limit what can be productively done.

You pay as much as the collective evaluation of the worth of the product. The product's worth is determined by everyone that might want to buy it. The mechanism of determining this price is reasonably honest, because you actually get the product at the end and actually pay the price.

[Freejack]

For me, the best place to buy the PDFs are at the Catalyst site, battlecorps.com. At least Catalyst gets all the money when you buy from there.

You probably won't get far arguing about PDF prices though. I know there are several threads here and over on rpg.net about PDFs and their costs. Rather than rehash them again, why not do a quick search and read up on the last thread. It'll save a bunch of time and you'll probably have all your answers.

Carl

[TBRMInsanity]

You aren't buying these things. These things limit what can be productively done.

You pay as much as the collective evaluation of the worth of the product. The product's worth is determined by everyone that might want to buy it. The mechanism of determining this price is reasonably honest, because you actually get the product at the end and actually pay the price.

Look at it this way, if I pay $34 for the printed version of the book or $34 for the PDF, what is the incentive to get the PDF? NONE! I might as well buy the book and create the PDF for myself that way I have the PDF for quick reference and I didn't get screwed on the price of the book.

I've been buying SR books since the first edition and I know exactly the price I'm willing to pay for a softcover book, a hardcover book, and a PDF. I shouldn't have to pay more then $50 for a hardcover (which is why I'm not complaining about the price for the hardcover book it is a good price), I shouldn't have to pay more then $30 for a softcover, and I shouldn't have to pay more then $20 for a PDF. They are not worth anything more then that.

[Freejack]

But the PDF is $25 (going by the core book) while the printed book is $34. At least on Battlecorps.

Carl

[Freejack]

Yea. Core rulebooks are PDF $25, printed, $34.99. Adventures are $18 for PDF and $24.99 for printed. The two PDF only products are $3.95 each.

Carl

[Heath Robinson]

Look at it this way, if I pay $34 for the printed version of the book or $34 for the PDF, what is the incentive to get the PDF? NONE! I might as well buy the book and create the PDF for myself that way I have the PDF for quick reference and I didn't get screwed on the price of the book.

Did you not read what I wrote? "The product's worth is determined by everyone that might want to buy it." Not just you. Everyone. If you don't want to pay $25 for the PDF, then I'm happy for you. No, really, I am. I also don't care. Other people do think it's a good price.

Anyway, the PDF releases are made from the print submissions and therefore have the original text with all the intended formatting. Scanning properly would require cutting a book apart to avoid the flex effects near the book spine, and then you'd have to OCR the images and manually edit to correct OCR errors. In all, the PDF release needs far less effort. Some people feel it's worth it. You don't.

Now, you were asking a question about the intent behind the pricing of the product. I have answered your question so would you kindly desist biting the hand that feeds you and let me get back to lurking?

[Phylos Fett]

Just out of curiousity, is there anyone that offers a PDF and Hardback book combo? As much as I love the feel of a Hardcover, PDFs are very convenient.

[Dream79]

Just out of curiousity, is there anyone that offers a PDF and Hardback book combo? As much as I love the feel of a Hardcover, PDFs are very convenient.

Not a bad idea. I would go for that.

[DWC]

Here's something else to consider. If you buy the PDF, when the book gets updated to include erratta, you get an updated PDF as part of the original price you paid.

[Freejack]

Yep. The Battlecorps site offers pdf+book prices. Unfortunately the price + shipping doesn't beat the FLGS price of the book. So I just get the PDF from Battlecorps and the hardback from the FLGS.

Carl

[Adam]

Just out of curiousity, is there anyone that offers a PDF and Hardback book combo? As much as I love the feel of a Hardcover, PDFs are very convenient.

We do this through the BattleShop, if you pre-order the print edition of any book; you get the PDF right away at a further discount and the print edition as soon as it ships.

Regarding a few things about PDF pricing ...

#1: if you [global, not you, Phylos] think that 10,000 units is a pessimistic number, it's pretty clear that you don't understand the scope that the RPG industry is working under currently. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

#2: We don't think that PDFs are some redheaded stepchild that are naturally worth far less than printed books. They have upsides that printed books don't have -- searchability, being able to be carried around on multiple electronic devices, being able to print and reprint only the bits that are important to you, errata updates, etc. They're very flexible.

[Phylos Fett]

We do this through the BattleShop, if you pre-order the print edition of any book; you get the PDF right away at a further discount and the print edition as soon as it ships.

Thanks for that Adam - just one other thing, do you only do pre-order combos, or are there regular PDF and book combos?

[DireRadiant]

I only have the SR4 and Street Magic books for 4th ed and I would like to get the rest but I'm tight on cash so I want to find a legit way of getting the PDFs for as cheap as possible. If I buy in USD then I can get ok prices at Drive Thru RPG but they are still outside what I'm willing to pay for a PDF. Does anyone know of any deals out there?

One way to get good deals is to become part of the Catalyst Demo Team or Play Testers. You have a lot of fun playing and meeting with lots of cool people, and you get free or discounted stuff. I get all my PDF for free as part of the time I put in on the Catalyst Demo Team.

Of course, instead of paying money you are trading in your valuable time playing and having fun as payment. Tis a hard choice indeed.