Non-Metahuman Sapient Info/Rules, Couple Questions; maybe I missed it? Options

[Windling]

Three Questions:

1. What's a Non-Metahuman Sapient's edge? Didn't see it in the book and couldn't find an errata. If it's not in the book I'm hoping someone like Sinner could provide and official answer. (If I missed it a page number would be great!)

2. I saw some languages in that section I've never seen before like Hopi & Upvehu. Are these native languages for the Cenataur and Pixie repectivly?

3. Outside of the April Fool's Runner Companion preview is there a RAW way to shapeshift (or similar spell) to a meta-human or plain human?

-Thanks

[Wiggles Von Beer...]

Runner's Companion, Page 84

All sapient critters begin the game with an Essence of 6, and their maximum Edge is 5, except for pixies who have a maximum
Edge of 7.

I'm assuming that they all start at 1, with the pixie starting at 2.

Hopi is a Native American language, and I'm not sure what Upvehu is.

[Ancient History]

Ran out of room, but Upvehu is a native Pixie language.

[Windling]

How about stating edge for Pixies...since they're the only ones with a different max? I'd agree that based on other races it would seem logical that is starts at 2 since it goes up to 7; but I don't want to take anything for granted. Is there an official answer?

(And thanks for the replies from both.)

[Neraph]

3) Technically, by a strict reading of the (Creature) Form spell, you can (Human) Form, and possibly (Troll), (Dwarf), (ect.) Form, since using Taxonomy names humans are evolutionally the same as animals. I myself am a Creationist, and I believe the God created man in his image. But since the game is based on evolution, these spells are completely legal.

... any non-paranormal animal...

[Windling]

3) Technically, by a strict reading of the (Creature) Form spell, you can (Human) Form, and possibly (Troll), (Dwarf), (ect.) Form, since using Taxonomy names humans are evolutionally the same as animals. I myself am a Creationist, and I believe the God created man in his image. But since the game is based on evolution, these spells are completely legal.

I'd agree from a scientific approach; but I'd be a little sketchy about how the game designers would feel about that. Mostly because, well, it's not the direct intent of the spell. (But a way that would be useful in certain situations.)

If someone officially tied to the game drops in, could you give me the "official" stance on the starting edge for a pixie and question #3? I'd appreciate it! One more question while I'm at it....games range from RAW to GM decides. In a RAW only game is it ok to use the spell design rules in Street Magic to alter or build spells? (The answer for non-RAW is obvious, so no need to go down that side of the road.)

Thanks!

[Ancient History]

3) Technically, by a strict reading of the (Creature) Form spell, you can (Human) Form, and possibly (Troll), (Dwarf), (ect.) Form, since using Taxonomy names humans are evolutionally the same as animals. I myself am a Creationist, and I believe the God created man in his image. But since the game is based on evolution, these spells are completely legal.

Dude, what? I swear we've had this conversation before. I don't care if you believe pink bunny slippers breed under your bed at night, (Critter) Form is not based on evolution or taxonomy.

[Neraph]

Critter form works like the Shapechange spell, but only allows the subject to change into a specific non-paranormal animal.

(Emphasis added)
Unless you're saying that humans and metahumans aren't animals, it's completely legit. You're right, it's not based on evolution or taxonomy, it's based on animals. Evolution is the theory by which we came from a rock, and taxonomy defines which animal branch we reside in. The reason I reference both is because they support the logic through which (Troll) Form, (Elf) Form, and others are legit, by the game rules.

And yes, we have had this conversation before. Unfortunately "I don't think that's how it works" doesn't really work as an arguement against a "here's the evidence why it does" approach.

EDIT: I actually believe this application of the spell breaks the spirit (REI) of the game, and I don't allow it in my campaigns, but the fact remains it is a legal application of the spell, true to the letter of the law (RAW).

[Ancient History]

You're aware that whether you believe in evolution or Creationism, humans are still animals, neh? You're trying to turn steak into beef by way of claiming you're a vegetarian.

[Draco18s]

EDIT: I actually believe this application of the spell breaks the spirit (REI) of the game, and I don't allow it in my campaigns, but the fact remains it is a legal application of the spell, true to the letter of the law (RAW).

It's RAI (Rules as Intended).
And the spell breaks the RAI when a metahuman PC has the spell to turn into another metahuman (the naga who can turn into a specific metahuman is no more broken than the grizzly bear who can do the same thing (SHAPESHIFTER POWER)), but the face-altering cyber (bio?) ware does exactly that, so I'd be inclined to disagree.

[Neraph]

It's RAI (Rules as Intended).
And the spell breaks the RAI when a metahuman PC has the spell to turn into another metahuman (the naga who can turn into a specific metahuman is no more broken than the grizzly bear who can do the same thing (SHAPESHIFTER POWER)), but the face-altering cyber (bio?) ware does exactly that, so I'd be inclined to disagree.

Great, but the spell doesn't break RAW, and that was my point. And I fail to see what plastic surgery has to do with this application of the spell.

[Neraph]

You're aware that whether you believe in evolution or Creationism, humans are still animals, neh? You're trying to turn steak into beef by way of claiming you're a vegetarian.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't attack my beliefs because you get too upset. I do believe humans are animals, just look at the way they act. I, however, am a son of God. You can be all the monkey-fathered impulse-driven animal you want, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

[HappyDaze]

Neraph, you're the one bringing real world religious beliefs into the forums. Promoting your beliefs can be considered attacking the beliefs of others, so you need to drop such references as they are against the rules (along with real-world politics). That includes your signature too.

[GreyBrother]

Shut up, all of you, willya? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
This isn't the place to discuss who believes what or what is right and stuff. Just keep it down and go on with the thread.

I think what Ancient History wants to say is, that the spell is meant to be in the mystical difference between animals and humans (since it's the mystic thing that counts, IMHO). So you can create a spell to transform into another metavariant, but the Shapechange spell as it stands is for animals (like rats, dogs, non-homosapiens-apes) and stuff like that.
Is this acceptable? Y/N?

[Draco18s]

Great, but the spell doesn't break RAW, and that was my point. And I fail to see what plastic surgery has to do with this application of the spell.

My point was that if cyberware can perform the same explicit function as "this is broken by RAI" then the spell is RAI and isn't breaking them. The cyberjunky gets his "become someone else" ability by sacrificing a small amount of essence, the mage gets it by spending 5 karma/BP and one of his 8 or 10 spell slots (and the drain of casting).

I don't see what the problem is.

[snowRaven]

In previous editions, these spells limited the caster to non-sentient animals, thus ruling out metahumans. I don't have a page or edition quote atm, though.

[Ancient History]

Shut up, all of you, willya? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
This isn't the place to discuss who believes what or what is right and stuff. Just keep it down and go on with the thread.

I think what Ancient History wants to say is, that the spell is meant to be in the mystical difference between animals and humans (since it's the mystic thing that counts, IMHO). So you can create a spell to transform into another metavariant, but the Shapechange spell as it stands is for animals (like rats, dogs, non-homosapiens-apes) and stuff like that.
Is this acceptable? Y/N?

Actually, I just think it is ridiculous to claim the spell is in any way supporting either evolution or Creationism, or that it has jack shit to do with the critter's Latin name.

[Degausser]

Oh geez, the religious-athiest argument again. Let's get three things straight.

1) This is a game. This is a game with magical trolls wielding as-yet uncreated heavy artillery with one hand. This stuff is about as far removed from the real world is Peanut Butter is from Llamas.

2)The RAI (not RAW, sometimes stuff slips by or is poorly worded) are written for game balance purposes first and foremost. If you must get different spells for turning into a rat then turning into a troll, this was probably done for game-balance purposes. Evidently, they thought it would be too powerful for a spell that turns you into a small cuddly creature to also be able to turn you into something with 12 body.

3)Shadowrun basically dumps on science and Christianity equally, and we all still play it. It dumps on science because magic exists in the game, and it dumps on Christianity because MAGIC EXISTS IN THE GAME. I don't see anyone getting hung up on that, but you get hung up over a sapience being a limiter on a spell description? Play the game how you want to, house rule anything you find stupid and/or offensive.

[Apathy]

This stuff is about as far removed from the real world is Peanut Butter is from Llamas.

Llamas love peanut butter. Does that mean the real world loves gamers?

[Draco18s]

Llamas love peanut butter. Does that mean the real world loves gamers?

No, it finds them a tasty delicacy.

[TheForgotten]

Dude, what? I swear we've had this conversation before. I don't care if you believe pink bunny slippers breed under your bed at night, (Critter) Form is not based on evolution or taxonomy.

Though Lesser Dragons seems to have access to spells to shapechange into a human (or at least the RAW strongly hints that they do).

[Stahlseele]

where?

[TheForgotten]

Lesser dragons
are capable of using
magic to assume metahuman
forms, but
it is not an innate
ability. (This means
that the magic must
be sustained, maintained
by a sustaining
focus, or something
similar.)

[HappyDaze]

It's in Dragons of the Sixth World, a 3rd edition sourcebook. It may have been repeated elsewhere.

[Stahlseele]

Dragons are like elves², they just can do everything better, even their spells and magics and the such . .
the bgi ones can control fate/karma for crying out loud. they are as close to being the gods of the world
as it comes . . and you wonder about them being able to shift their form a bit more? honestly? really?