PETITION, To place a hold on the Anniversary Edition. Options

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The GM didn't want a character with those stats in the game.

And he's even less likely to want a character with 'cheated' stats in the game.

All I would care about is if the RAW was adhered to during the game.

That's very enlightened, but not the norm. In fact, the expectation is that you conform to the norm called RAW even before.

But I don't really care how much karma was how legitimately earned and spent, only if the end result - the character fits in a game. If it's too strong, then that's too bad.

And one first overall indicator how 'strong' a character is, no matter how you need to check it for details, is total earned karma. If that doesn't correpsond to total spent karma...

I don't.

I know and said so - the official system has.

[Draco18s]

Now you know why my GM doubles the suggested karma awards and added a way for us to buy karma (donate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 5000 in exchange for some karma--started at 1, now it's 3 (retroactive)).

Also why the most epic game ever run by our group was Scion: Hero to God (in 11 weeks). Rough estimate of EXP awarded per session: 50 to 75. SR equivalent: about 200 to 300 Karma (because remember, godlings can buy godlike powers).

[Rotbart van Dain...]

that's why the karma distribution system is only a guideline.

A guideline people will uses and that didn't change in SR4.5

And if you don't know what your current Karma total is (as you obviously didn't write it down) how do you divide by 10?

You count earned karma up to 10, add a point street cred, then restart.

[Angier]

which equals what? oh, change in design focus. cool. they did it. burn em for that!

[hermit]

Different stat, recorded and modified independently, though derived from earned karma.

Hard to derive things from numbers you don't know. Honestly, that's all the total Karma has ever been good for.

You keep track of every tenth point of earned karma.

Seriously.

Meh. One needs to remember that the Pornomancer only gets that DP when doing one thing: trying to convince someone to have sex with them. It's not something that can be done in 1 Initiative Pass or even in 1 Combat Turn. For the amount of time it takes you to say "Nice legs, when do they open?" that sec guard probably hit you with 4 or 6 bursts from an SMG. Also keep in mind that the Pornomancer has quite a few conditional bonuses as part of that DP: First Impression and Home Ground for example. So right there they don't get the full DP unless they have never met the person before, and when that "target" person is in their "home ground" environment, which the book specifically states should not be mobile or even a "commonly encountered" area. Finally, the Pornomancer needs to gimp pretty much every other skill area in order to get that DP in Seduction. Also keep in mind that making a Seduction roll doesn't necessarily mean the person is prepared to give you anything you ask for in exchange for sex. While such a skill can be useful (even extremely useful) in some situations, its not what I would call "extremely broken."

Ah, so it is a severely crippled one-trick pony.

[Draco18s]

which equals what? oh, change in design focus. cool. they did it. burn em for that!

So you like playing the same character with no noticable advancement over the course of months?

[Malicant]

That's how he rolls. Advancement is for powergamers anyway.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

There's a new edition of Traveler out there...

[Angier]

So you like playing the same character with no noticable advancement over the course of months?

nope. In my round we get a standard of 7 karma per session. suffices. besides that my personal observations regarding the weighting of attributes and skills showed me that attributes were way to cheap.

[Draco18s]

nope. In my round we get a standard of 7 karma per session. suffices. besides that my personal observations regarding the weighting of attributes and skills showed me that attributes were way to cheap.

See my signature.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Ah, so it is a severely crippled one-trick pony.

When using different mentor spirits, the build turned into a Leadermancer or Diplomancer.

[Fuchs]

So you like playing the same character with no noticable advancement over the course of months?

Yes. Over years, actually, in my case.

[hobgoblin]

i really need to get some popcorn going (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Malicant]

Salty or sweet?

[hobgoblin]

sweet?! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[Fuchs]

I also wonder about convention games. How would I know if karam was earned "legitimately"? Who knows if karam was not given out by a monty haul GM? Or by "I run your character, you run my character through milk run runs! We'll be initiates in no time!" teams?

Seriously, unless you've been there for all the karama earned, you don't know how it was earned.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Salty or sweet?

How about basic? It'll sure compensate all the vitriol here... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

Seriously, unless you've been there for all the karama earned, you don't know how it was earned.

And your point would be?

My point is that spent karma is expected to be equal or less than total karma as a plausibility check and experience gauge.

[Malicant]

sweet?! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

I know, right?

[hobgoblin]

How about basic? It'll sure compensate all the vitriol here... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

i just hope the walls can take it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[eidolon]

My quick take on the two "biggies" of att advancement cost and Direct Combat spells:

- reward more Karma

- I've always run it this way, because the game never said you got two rolls in that case.

I'm seeing a bunch of people that want a company to listen to their ideas and incorporate their fixes into the game griping when the company does just that. You can't forget that while they are listening to you, it's still their game and their product, and it isn't their job to make sure that they please you personally. You didn't like every little thing about the game before, you aren't likely to like every little thing about the game now. It's life as a gamer.

[Draco18s]

- I've always run it this way, because the game never said you got two rolls in that case.

I'm confused. Two rolls?

[Muspellsheimr]

Back to the original topic(ish).

I support delaying the print run & using the PDF release as a Beta test.

The changes I feel need addressing, & my suggested alterations in Spoilers.
Note: I still have not obtained the PDF, & am basing this on what I have seen posted on these forums.

1) Attribute Advancement Costs

[ Spoiler ]

A change was needed, but the one used is incomplete. While entirely acceptable for Human characters, it seriously hinders metatypes.
My suggested change, taken from my personal Karma Generation Rules:

Step 3: Purchase Attributes
Next, purchase the characters attributes (including special attributes). Characters begin with the minimum attribute ratings defined by their race/metatype (including Templates). Before determining the advancement cost of an attribute, apply the inverse of any racial modifiers. To determine a racial modifier to an attribute, calculate the difference between the races maximum & 6 (an Elf has 8 maximum Charisma, the racial modifier is +2; a Dwarf has 5 maximum Reaction, the racial modifier is -1). The cost of increasing an Attribute is New Rating x 5 Karma.

Example: John wishes to increase his Trolls Body from 5 to 6. Because a Troll has +4 Body, the cost is (6-4) x 5, or 10 Karma.

Example: John then decides to increase his Trolls Charisma from 1 to 2. A Troll has -2 Charisma, so the cost is (2+2) x 5, or 20 Karma.

2) Direct Combat Spells

[ Spoiler ]

Again, a change was needed, but this time it was not incomplete, but entirely in the wrong direction. Instead of introducing another sub-system to reduce their effectiveness, remove a sub-system, streamlining them with everything else. Allow a Defense Test and a Resistance Test against Direct Combat spells.

3) Limits on Hardware/Software Ratings

[ Spoiler ]

This change was entirely unnecessary. If you feel there is an issue with cost-discrepancies between buying something, & creating it yourself with the upgrade rules, simply adjust the Nuyen cost of one or both sides to better conform.

Edit:
4) OR Resistance Table

[ Spoiler ]

As has been said, an OR of 6 is nearly impossible for even high-level characters to affect reliably, & thus is to high for "common" opposition such as drones. While I do like the new scale, I strongly suggest setting the examples one step lower; natural occurrences such as trees become an OR 0, while 6 is reserved for 'cutting-edge breakthrough advancements'. 2 is an example of generic electronic devices.

Edit:
4) OR Resistance Table (suggested table layout)

[ Spoiler ]

Threshold / Category
0 / Natural Objects (Trees, Soil, Unprocessed Water)
1 / Manufactured Low-Tech Objects and Materials (Brick, Leather, Simple Plastics)
2 / Manufactured High-Tech Objects and Materials (Advanced Plastics, Alloys, Electronic Equipment)
4 / Highly Processed Objects (Computers, Drones, Vehicles)
6+ / Highly Processed & Intricate Objects (Complex Toxic Wastes & Chemicals, Cutting-Edge Nanotechnology)

[Angier]

@ 2) what would make them then any useful?

[HappyDaze]

I support delaying the print run & using the PDF release as a Beta test.

I purchased the PDF with the belief that it is the finished product. Are you really suggesting that the company defraud me and others like me that purchased it with that belief?

[pbangarth]

Won't PDFs with fixes come for free to those who purchased the PDF? That's what I thought when I bought the PDF.