Let's inflict diseases on player characters, Remember D&D 1st edition? Options

[Wounded Ronin]

One of the coolest things every about D&D 1st edition was that if you were playing it right (meaning trying to use each and every rule) you were actually supposed to roll on a monthly basis (IIRC) to see if a character came down with a classic medieval disease. You would then make subsequent rolls within a certain time frame and the character could get better or basically be starting on a slow death.

I thought that was pretty hardcore cool and very evocative of a medieval feeling, especially if there were no pesky clerics with Cure Disease around. And since I've started as a diease investigator a while ago, I myself have seen some extremely sick people, even today, that I guess lots of people nowadays would not likely see on a typical basis in a city.

But when I think about the concept of a shadowrunner with the Squatter lifestyle and eats out of a Stuffer Shack, honestly that guy should get a lot of diseases. Even if we have "future tech" and clonal limbs and stuff what I've learned is that today many people suffer greatly from theoretically curable diseases because they rely on home remedies for an extended period of time, they think that Western medicine is scary and they try to avoid it, they think they know better than the doctor how to take their meds and rationalize all kinds of elaborate weird reasons not to follow treatment as directed ("We're a small people, and Western medicine is so powerful that it would just overwhelm our small bodies. Therefore I'm going to specifically take incomplete doses on my antibiotics on a sporadic basis.") , they're suspicious of authorities and thus their friends avoid "snitiching" on them when someone from public health comes looking for them to find them and offer them free medical care, and some people just seem to avoid seeking medical care no matter how sick they get.

In other words, there's not necessarily any difference between a medieval man who gets a disease and suffers horribly and a current day man who gets a disease and basically doesn't avail himself of modern medicine. The exact same thing would happen to those two people.

I could definitely see a shadowrunner being very suspicious of "the system" and basically ignoring signs and symptoms of a serious disease and not getting the medical treatment he or she needs, and then again there's no reason that the shadowrunner would progress any differently than our archetypal malnourished medieval man. Or if the Shadowrunner gets some kind of antibiotic from a crappy "ripper clinic" he could still screw up the treatment by not taking the antibiotics correctly and then he potentially comes down with a bug that is resistant to the "future medicines".

This could totally happen with tuberculosis. Tuberculosis was and still is a nasty disease, and it is airborne. Four drugs were developed that can kick its ass when taken correctly for an extended period of time. But what happened? People all over the world dropped the ball and lots of people did not take treatment correctly. From all those millions of incorrectly administered treatments we started to get resistant strains of tuberculosis and they spread all over the world.

So we had to go back in time, and wheel out older, inferior antibiotics to treat the resistant tuberculosis. They were less effective and had worse side affects. Some people suffer a great deal from taking those drugs, which can include an extremely painful injection on a regular basis. But of course, then around the world people mis-administered these older antibiotics, and what happened?

Now we have tuberculosis strains that are resistant to almost everything we can throw at it. It is called extensively drug resistant tuberculosis, or XDR. Holy crap, that is bad news. We're talking potentially incurable contagious airborne disease. And it is entirely the creation of people around the world who basically dropped the ball on treatment. I understand that in some countries people with XDR are incarcerated in order to protect public health. I'd urge you to look at the following photo collection: http://xdrtb.org/

So, my point is, even if we have "future medicine", someone who lives a marginalized lifestyle as a shadowrunner would nevertheless be a candidate for getting all kinds of diseases including mutated or resistant versions of the ones we have today which could be resistant against "future medicine". What is more is that OOC meta-gaming aside, someone who chooses to live as a shadowrunner would likely avoid going to get medical treatment for lots of conditions until they became unbearable because he or she would be used to being injured and being in pain and at the same time would probably try to live as much under the radar as possible.

Another thought is that someone who is around flying blood and guts all the time is more likely to get something from aerosolization of body fluids, contact with blood, and so forth. Funky things can happen when you play with someone else's body fluids. I learned last night that although tuberculosis transmission is primarly airborne, there have been rare cases of it being spread cutaneously: http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/119/7_Part_1/594

A 48-year-old, white registered nurse, who was previously healthy, reported suffering a 1-cm superficial laceration of her left forearm. The laceration resulted from a metallic needle, which had previously been inserted into the port of a central-line catheter of a patient with the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS). The lesion oozed a few drops of blood and was immediately washed with water and an iodine solution. Zidovudine (Retrovir, Burroughs Wellcome Co., Research Triangle Park, North Carolina) administration was started within 2 hours of the incident and was continued at a dose of 200 mg every 4 hours. The nurse denied direct contact with the patient's secretions before the injury and did not provide nursing care for this particular patient after her injury. She tested negative for human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) antibody on that same day.
...
The nurse interrupted her zidovudine therapy after 10 days secondary to a severe headache. During the next 5 weeks, she noted increasing erythema with subsequent abscess formation at the laceration site, along with fevers to 38.9 °C (102 °F). The abscess was incised, and despite treatment with dicloxacillin (Dynapen; Bristol-Meyers-Squibb, New Brunswick, NJ), it failed to heal. Fungal and standard bacterial cultures were repeatedly negative. Six weeks after the incident, a 2-cm, tender left axillary lymph node had developed, and an intradermal, intermediate-strength purified protein derivative showed a positive reaction of 15 mm of induration. The same skin test done 4 months earlier in the nurse had been negative. A chest roentgenogram was normal. Laboratory testing showed a normal complete blood count and a slightly increased Westergren sedimentation rate. A punch biopsy of the lesion showed granulomatous inflammation with Langerhans giant cells and acid-fast bacilli by Fite stain. A culture of the biopsy yielded 43 colonies of M. tuberculosis, sensitive to isoniazid, rifampin, and ethambutol.

So, I'm thinking of a list of diseases with which to slam player characters in the increasingly unlikely event that I ever GM again:

Diseases you've got a random monthly chance of contracting, adjusted up or down for risk factors:

1.) Tuberculosis
2.) Community-acquired pneumonia, could be bacterial, fungal, or whatever
3.) Mutant avian flu
4.) Impetigo
5.) Malaria
6.) Meningitis
7.) Fungal infection of the skin
8.) Parasites in the stomach or intestines
9.) Nasty case of food poisioning
10.) Influenza
11.) Bacterial infection of small scrape or cut, most probably staph, but possibly something exotic like cutaneous tuberculosis
12.) Scrofula, aka "The King's Evil". Player character must go on a quest to France and fondle the rotting exhumed bones of a French king to be cured. Since it's resistant to, y'know, medicine. Technically this would fall under the broad catergory of cutaneous tuberculosis but scrofula is so charmingly medieval...


After exposure to blood or body fluids, roll for:

1.) HIV
2.) Hepatitis

Hmm, I need more research for myself relating to blood borne diseases.


But, that's the idea. D&D 1st edition monthly disease checks. It would help you to role play your character by being gritty and realistic. It could also enhance flavor when a doctor at Seattle General Hospital tells you that if you kill his wife and make it look like an accident, he will in exchange treat your horrific disease.

[hermit]

But when I think about the concept of a shadowrunner with the Squatter lifestyle and eats out of a Stuffer Shack

... which, frankly, is bullshit ... even with the shit pay of SR4 runs.

One of the coolest things every about D&D 1st edition was that if you were playing it right (meaning trying to use each and every rule) you were actually supposed to roll on a monthly basis (IIRC) to see if a character came down with a classic medieval disease. You would then make subsequent rolls within a certain time frame and the character could get better or basically be starting on a slow death.

LOLWUT?

Just reinforces my opinion that D&D is a crap system to begin with.

In other words, there's not necessarily any difference between a medieval man who gets a disease and suffers horribly and a current day man who gets a disease and basically doesn't avail himself of modern medicine. The exact same thing would happen to those two people.

Why, because shadowrunners are generally afraidf of street docs? Just because the people you see are the stupid ones who do not get treatment does not mean runner characters will act like this unless that is a specific flaw of the character, does it?

'sides, most these diseases usually get you hospitalised or immobilised to the point of not being able to paerticipate in a shadowrun, the effect being the character will not be played any more. YMMV, but I don't see this as a very fun thing to game.

[Malicant]

All such rules does is increase pointless dice rolling that does not improve gameplay or roleplay at all.
Even if this gives you joy and exitement somehow, why not be a roleplayer and simply state: hey, my char is sick right now. But if you want a die roll to decide, if your charcter dies from having the sniffles, you're doing something wrong. You should worry about bullets, enforcers, extra planar threats, not chicken soup and a comfy couch.

[BIG BAD BEESTE]

Heh, infecting PCs with diseases can be fun for the GM, and if done right a good roleplaying experience for the player too. I personally like the plethora of ailments listed in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (2nd Edition) as it really brings out the dark, medieval style of the Warhammer world (plus they've got Nurgle).

As for Shadowrun however, sure make resistance tests when there's a chance of contracting something during a run, but allow the PCs the benefit of the doubt if they take precautions - chemsuits, HAZMAT gear, or even a medkit or stocking-up of antidote patches. This would generally be done for the average ailments expected to be encountered on a run - IE: tetanus shots, antibiotics, or even specific anti-disease treatments for malaria (say if you're running in the tropics of Amazonia for instance). When it comes to a distinctive game related threat - say a biohazard virus or something carried by an infected critter, then that becomes an encounter thread/threat rather than simple background possiblity and thus specific and stated medical attention will be required to avoid infection. Back in 1st Edition, certain critters also had a dice percentage chance of carrying certain viruses/infection which could be transmitted upon wounding a runner. This was aside from the Pestilence Power BTW.

As for the possibility of modern lifestyle runners becomming prone to generic infections, well you can also sum that up in monthly Body Resistance Tests made against certain thresholds depending upon the runner's Lifestyle payment category. IE: A Squatter level lifestyle might need two hits to remain more or less healthy every month. One gives him some nasty affliction, but curable. Zero and its not so good for those nearby. Getting two wuould stiull mean that they suffer from minor ailments like skin disorders which are more socially inhibiting than health afflicting.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

O Cell Nanites.

[Snow_Fox]

yeah it seems a little over the top, I mean there was a reason it disapeared from AD&D and even with the weird diseases in SR I think the world is a a healthier place NOW 2070 because the corps have it in their interest to squash it. and without a host to carry it-an army coming home (Spanish Influenze 1919) or a wave of rats (Beubonic plague) trveling from city to city by ship outbreaks can be contained. of course an outbreak at a closed corp community would be contained at once.

[Neraph]

OP, if you haven't already, check out Augmentation. They have a section on diseases that you might find interesting. I myself in my games am going to start implementing diseases more than I am currently (one of the players is a Nosferatu with Carrier [Dzoo-Noo-Qua], Carrier [Banshee], and Carrier [Ghoul]...). All the diseases you could want and ask for (and the rules to use them) are in Augmentation.

[TBRMInsanity]

I suppose if you want to you could create a house rule that a character is poisoned by their lifestyle at the beginning of each game session. You would use the toxin rules on page 245 BBB with the following toxin:
Vector: all
Speed: Instant
Penetration: based on lifestyle
Power: based on lifestyle
Effect: Damage

Street: Pen = 5, Pow = 10
Squatter: Pen = 3, Pow = 6
Low: Pen = 2, Pow = 4
Medium: Pen = 1, Pow = 2
High: Pen = 1, Pow = 1
Luxury: Pen = 0, Pow = 0

[Neraph]

I suppose if you want to you could create a house rule that a character is poisoned by their lifestyle at the beginning of each game session. You would use the toxin rules on page 245 BBB with the following toxin:
Vector: all
Speed: Instant
Penetration: based on lifestyle
Power: based on lifestyle
Effect: Damage

Street: Pen = 5, Pow = 10
Squatter: Pen = 3, Pow = 6
Low: Pen = 2, Pow = 4
Medium: Pen = 1, Pow = 2
High: Pen = 1, Pow = 1
Luxury: Pen = 0, Pow = 0

That = kill the party.

[Method]

I kind of like the idea, but then I'm a little biased. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) I don't think I'd implement it in this form, but if you want a grittier game it would add a lot. The reality is that health is something that real people stress about all the time. As someone suggested, if any of us were traveling to Africa the first thing we would do is get some Lariam.

Plus it gives dwarfs an edge (they theoretically pay BP for that niffty resistance to pathogens, right?) and makes characters with biotech/medicine more useful. Might even make a street doc or combat medic character more viable.

As far as fluff goes, I think everything Wounded Ronin proposed is certainly feasible. You also have to consider who controls the medical resources in 207x. Your choices are Street Doc ("Trust me! This should work like a charm..."), Doc Wagon ("Sorry, we only deal with trauma"), some corporate clinic ("Sorry we don't serve SINless") or the Universal Brotherhood's free neighborhood clinic ("Sure we'll help you out with that!! Right this way..."). If you're lucky enough to know a mage with a Cure Disease spell, you're probably going to owe them a favor (which drives future game play).

'sides, most these diseases usually get you hospitalised or immobilised to the point of not being able to paerticipate in a shadowrun, the effect being the character will not be played any more. YMMV, but I don't see this as a very fun thing to game.

People with TB can wander about killing stuff for years... Thats part of the reason its called "Consumption"- it takes awhile. I think it could add a little tragedy to a good character.

Hmm, I need more research for myself relating to blood borne diseases

Anything in particular you would want to know? Or just more blood-borne pathogens? I would differentiate between Hep B and Hep C because their disease course is very different and because Hep B is considerably more infectious. For all we know VITAS could be on that list, too.

[BIG BAD BEESTE]

Funnily enough, I've never really known a PC to invest in Antidote Toxin or Cure Disease spells. Its all Treat, Heal and Increase Reflexes from the Health category. Hmmm, think I'm going to introduce my group to the joys of rabid paranimals and contaminated biolad raids...

Anyhow, onto the subject of disease control again, don't forget that magic has very much made its mark in the Sixth World - they'd be a lot more faith medicine and traditional remedies about, especially in NAN areas. Even if you can't afford the mage'o'clinic holistic healing agency there's bound to be a local shaman or witch doctor about. And Bear shamans are pretty much obligated to heal the sick by their totem.

[Medicineman]

I'm dancing with Hermit here(maybe not as aggressively,but I think he's right)
The only thing you'll acomplish is that Chars pay a little more to their Streetdocs or Lifestyle and begone with the Nuisance
It's a lot of Houseroules for nothin'

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Rotbart van Dain...]

(one of the players is a Nosferatu with Carrier [Dzoo-Noo-Qua], Carrier [Banshee], and Carrier [Ghoul]...)

I sure hope not.

[Fuchs]

I am with Medizimann and Hermit. If someone had such a rule in play I'd simply ask how much I'd have to pay per months to never worry about such stuff, and pay it. If I was forced to deal with such stuff, or even worse, if someone would try to tell me my character was stupid enough not to get treatments, I'd walk away.

[hermit]

I sure hope not.

You sure get to meet interesting people in the gaming scene.

Doc Wagon ("Sorry, we only deal with trauma"),

What. Since when?

or the Universal Brotherhood's free neighborhood clinic ("Sure we'll help you out with that!! Right this way...").

Or Horizon employees on a do-goody trip. Or a Horizon-financed free clinic. A clinic run by MOM, or maybe MSF, or a locsal church. Granted, youu might not like the Church of Humanis, but unless you are a Meta they will do good business for you (if you're meta too, but doin't count on having children afterwards). Not the UB though, they were burnt down in 56, way before the current setting.

As someone suggested, if any of us were traveling to Africa the first thing we would do is get some Lariam.

Sensible players do that, too. For their characters. I sure hope they do it when taking a trip to Africa themselves too, of course.

I'm dancing with Hermit here(maybe not as aggressively,but I think he's right)

On ice. Where hell used to be.

[suppenhuhn]

I think it's horrible gamemastering when a simple dice roll decides whether a character lives or dies.
Sure, when the players decide to rush through that biotech lab without any precaution then infect em but don't let people make monthly roles to see if they catch a flu.
What this rule would accomplish would simply be that everyone buys the minimum lifestyle so they won't have to roll and mages paying 4 BP to learn cure disease from the start.
Besides you also don't use a random encounter table where the party stumbles across 2D6 devil rats while sneaking through Aztec management do you?

[kanislatrans]

my 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

I wouldn't make it a rule, but would put the disease thing on a side cart and use it on a "as the situation warrants" basis...PC's have to crawl through a sewer to break into the target? oh, yeah, definitely a roll with some big modifiers.

I do think that the NPC's on the street would be prone to more disease( and therefore would have a chance to infect interacting PC's)" ya lay down with dogs, ya get up with fleas" as my grammy used to say.

It would strengthen the storyline of dystopian"gap between rich and poor"future and could be used as a plot device.
but I wouldn't use it all the time.

[TBRMInsanity]

Maybe my levels are too high, and I think a DocWagon contract would also help in this test (ie cause you technically would have a healthcare plan). Just throwing numbers out there but how does this sound:

Squatter: pen=2, pow=5
Street: pen=2, pow=4
Low: pen=1, pow=3
Medium: pen=1, pow=2
High: pen=0, pow=1
Luxury: pen=0, pow=0

DocWagon:
Basic: pen=-1, pow=-1
Gold: pen=-1,pow=-2
Platinum: pen=-2, pow=-3
Super-Platinum: pen=-2, pow=-4

[nezumi]

If I'm reading this correctly, these diseases would primarily be the result of:
1) Either choosing a lifestyle which does not include proper medical care OR
2) Intentionally putting yourself in a situation where diseases are rampant.

So for instance, with the first, WR brings up a great point. In the US, prior to the 20th century, malaria was a huge problem all up and down the east coast, to the point that some senators actually recommended making a giant net over the capital to keep the mosquitos out. But now malaria has basically disappeared from the US through a mix of proper environmental controls (reducing mosquito breeding grounds) and proper treatment of victims to break the lifecycle.

Fast forward, now there are swathes of land full of people who can't get basic medical treatment, and places where barrels are stored in the open as a general rule. Malaria would explode, and anyone who is living in a squatter lifestyle either better know somebody, or they're basically SOL. Similarly, mumps is a disease we basically don't hear about any more in the US because 99.9% of all kids are immunized against it as a child - but if that number drops to maybe 40% (i.e., all those with SINs), you can expect mumps to make a big come-back.

For the second point, if you're clearing out a ghoul nest or a compound of diseased humans, you run the risk of disease - that's just part and parcel, and goes with the territory.


Most of the first category can be removed by having a proper background (so you get immunizations) and/or currently living at low/moderate or above and/or paying a bit extra off the top for regular medical care. I would assume most people at Moderate lifestyle or above get this as part of their lifestyle costs, it's only if you're below that that you'd run any real risk (or if you're Moderate, but decide you don't trust 'the man', which is a character decision). As a GM, I would probably avoid randomly infecting my characters with anything untreatable (especially in order to be untreatable, it would probably have to be magical, which currently means it's very rare) based solely on a dice roll. Something as minor as saying 'your home docbot tells you you have MRSA. You visit a street shaman who clears it up after making you quaff dried ox dung' is fun color I, as a GM, wouldn't think of otherwise.

The second category, again, goes part and parcel. The rules cover this a bit in regards to HMHVV, but not really in regards to anything else. I'd love it if my party went into a job only to find out, half way through, they're actually raiding a neo-leprosy camp. That would really crank up the paranoia (right now I have two characters who have HMHVV, and that alone is making the entire party nervous, since they have to take off a month from running to heal up, and neither has yet). But again, proper precautions at least significantly reduce this problem.


WR, I'd love to see some improved rules on diseases, with sample diseases for use, especially diseases which don't kill you within a month, but cause long-term harm. As long as the rules are simple, I'll probably give 'em a go (and probably recommend them for SR3R as well).

[Neraph]

...one of the players is a Nosferatu with...

You guys know what I meant.

(if you're meta too, but doin't count on having children afterwards)

Interestingly enough, Planned Parenthood was created by a racist who believed that Mexicans and Black people were less than real people, and she "noticed" they get pregnant more often. She made PP to allow them to get abortions (read: perform infancide) so that they'd breed themselves out or something. I find it almost humorous to note that (I think) white people have ended up getting more abortions due to PP influence.

But yeah, I can totally see non-radical Humanis members offering some sort of healthcare, while sneaking in vasectomies and hysterectomies (spelling?).

[Method]

I find it almost humorous to note that (I think) white people have ended up getting more abortions due to PP influence.

I don't know about the conspiracy theory, but numerous studies have shown that women in lower socioeconomic groups have more abortions.

-----------------------------

What. Since when?

Gee, I don't know... SR1? DocWagon clinics that provide more than emergent care are few and far between.

...DocWagon central clinics almost rival the standard of health care in Japan, though the level of service provided by DocWagon clinics varies widely. Some facilities provide emergency care only. These clinics deal with trauma cases and immediate medical problems, then transfer the patient to other facilities for further treatment. Other clinics can provide intensive and acute care, but cannot provide chronic or long-term care. And some clinics serve every need, including providing cybernetic replacement if requested.

Any bets on what lifestyle might include access to one of those full service clinics? Platinum + SIN + DNA sample...

Again, I wouldn't necessarily implement this idea as a simple "2d6 = 5 = Avian Flu" mechanic. But I do think that run-of-the-mill common diseases could add a lot to a SR game, especially "street" or squatter level games. It sounds to me like a lot of the objections are from those who likewise don't enjoy roleplaying a squatter who needs to hunt devil rats for food. Well to each his own, says I... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[TBRMInsanity]

Again, I wouldn't necessarily implement this idea as a simple "2d6 = 5 = Avian Flu" mechanic. But I do think that run-of-the-mill common diseases could add a lot to a SR game, especially "street" or squatter level games. It sounds to me like a lot of the objections are from those who likewise don't enjoy roleplaying a squatter who needs to hunt devil rats for food. Well to each his own, says I... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I agree totally. These would be HOUSERULES ONLY and as such if someone didn't want to play with them, YOU DON'T HAVE TO.

---------------------------------------

I do recall back in SR2 that someone actually made house rules for common diseases and how they would effect you. For the love of God I can't remember who made the rules or were to find them. If someone can help me out that would be great.

[suppenhuhn]

It sounds to me like a lot of the objections are from those who likewise don't enjoy roleplaying a squatter who needs to hunt devil rats for food. Well to each his own, says I... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Actually i love playing low powered street or squatter campaigns and that's why i'm against it.
Just go through the list of diseases op has provided. Most of them are a death warrant, the nicer ones would only take out the character for half of the campaign. Where's the roleplaying in *roll* Jim your character has contracted a fatal disease and will die within 3 weeks, please make a new character.
Random diseases of such magnitude don't promote any roleplaying at all to be honest and if you want to make a disease ridden player the focus of your campaign you don't need random rolls.

[fistandantilus4....]

I'd like to see a bit more of this sort of thing in games personally. I would agree though that it depends on the tone of the game you're oging for, and should be agreed on before hand.

After all, that ganger you just blew away, who knows what kind of diseases he might be carrying. Trip down to Amazonia? Better be properly prepared. Trying to sneak in through the sewers huh? There's a reason or three besides the smell people stay out of there. Things like this could easily be brought into the game if the group should so choose, and the PC isn't careful.

[cryptoknight]

One of the coolest things every about D&D 1st edition was that if you were playing it right (meaning trying to use each and every rule) you were actually supposed to roll on a monthly basis (IIRC) to see if a character came down with a classic medieval disease. You would then make subsequent rolls within a certain time frame and the character could get better or basically be starting on a slow death.

That's odd... I played D&D and AD&D 1st ed from 1981 until 1989 (when we switched to 2nd ed) and the only way I recall there being a disease was if an evil cleric cast cause disease (reversed spell of cure disease).