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#1
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 30-November 08 Member No.: 16,642 ![]() |
i'm relatively new to SR4 gm'ing and i don't see what is so overpowered about overcasting in SR4 and SR4a regarding drain. i realize the drain turns physical and overcasting increasing the force (and thereby net hits) but people seem to state in the SR4a threads that doing this *helps* lower drain. can anyone explain this to me? thanks!
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#2
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 16-March 05 From: 51° 16' North 7° 11' East Member No.: 7,168 ![]() |
Now it will start all over again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)
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#3
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,173 Joined: 27-July 05 From: some backwater node Member No.: 7,520 ![]() |
I will use a metaphor for casting direct combat spells to explain that.
Imagine you run a hundred yards. Now imagine you were sprinting those yards, reaching your goal faster, but being more exhausted. That was SR4 regular and overcasting. Now in SR4A if you run, you can exert yourself so much, that your heart stops beating. Sprinting on the other hand is exactly the same as before. That is my friggin' problem. |
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#4
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 10-September 07 Member No.: 13,202 ![]() |
The problem which some people seem to have appears to be that by Overcsting a mage takes physical damage rather than subdual damage but not a large amount of it which they can then heal by using first aid. In addition by overcasting they can select a damage value which will automaticically take out the target with only 1 net success.
I thought I would have a stab at answering your question instead of the random sarcasm |
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#5
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
Let me see if I can help out a bit too.
With normal casting, you'd have to get a lot of hits to do dangerous amounts of damage (thereby increasing the drain to yourself dangerously as well). Ex: Magic 6 spellcaster casting a force 6 spell needs 6 successes (raising the Drain by 6 as well) to deal 12 damage. With overcasting, your drain is physical, but the base damage code is going to be substantially larger as well. Ex: Magic 6 spellcaster casting force 12 spell needs 1 success (raising the Drain by 1, for a total of 2 less than the above case) to deal 13 damage. So you actually do end up with less drain (albeit not by much, and its physical now), and you deal more damage with the end result by overcasting Direct Combat spells. |
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#6
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Grand Master of Run-Fu ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 ![]() |
Let me repeat the example that Synner said is the case, now, in SR4.5:
Take Joe Mage, with Magic 5. He really wants to take out a target, so he throws a manabolt. He has a choice: he can throw a Force 5 manabolt, hope he scores 5 net successes, and then take 7S drain. Or, he can overcast a Force 10 manabolt, use no net successes for damage, and only be facing a 5P drain. In either case, a first-aid kit will probably be able to patch up whatever damage he takes, Since his Drain resistance pool remains exactly the same, he's more likely to soak the damage from the overcast spell. See the problem? |
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#7
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 6-December 08 Member No.: 16,664 ![]() |
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#8
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 380 Joined: 19-May 07 Member No.: 11,698 ![]() |
Or you could just use the Base BBB rules. I know it's not the newest errata, but it works. You only take drain based on the force (not the hits), and overcasting increases the effective drain as well as changing it to physical. Also, I was under the impression that drain COULDN'T be healed by first aid. Only time (or the Medicine skill) could heal it.
Also, I may be wrong, but here is some food for thought: physical damage is a heckova lot worse then stun. BECAUSE, on a shadowrun, people are likely to be shooting you. So if you get shot, then overcast, all that damage is forcing you towards physical overflow. On the other hand, stun and physical damage are kept track of seperatly, so you are less likely to die in the middle of a firefight. |
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#9
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,973 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Fairfax, VA Member No.: 13,526 ![]() |
Or you could just use the Base BBB rules. I know it's not the newest errata, but it works. You only take drain based on the force (not the hits), and overcasting increases the effective drain as well as changing it to physical. Also, I was under the impression that drain COULDN'T be healed by first aid. Only time (or the Medicine skill) could heal it. Also, I may be wrong, but here is some food for thought: physical damage is a heckova lot worse then stun. BECAUSE, on a shadowrun, people are likely to be shooting you. So if you get shot, then overcast, all that damage is forcing you towards physical overflow. On the other hand, stun and physical damage are kept track of seperatly, so you are less likely to die in the middle of a firefight. Thanks to how rediculous the FFBA and PPP armor stacking gets, most gunshot wounds are going to result in stun damage anyway. Oh, and drain can't be magically healed. It can be first aided all day long. |
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#10
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,173 Joined: 27-July 05 From: some backwater node Member No.: 7,520 ![]() |
But doesn't that make First Aid magical, meaning, it can't heal drain? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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#11
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Grand Master of Run-Fu ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 ![]() |
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#12
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 15-March 09 Member No.: 16,970 ![]() |
Yeah Deguasser, you have a point. All the examples above assume that you haven't taken any damage before you overcast. Using a first aid kit in the middle of combat isn't a very good idea. In most shadowrun games, your going to end up taking some damage, especially if you just knocked out one guy with one hit. (Surely you would be a nice target for those corp guys now). I suppose you may encounter a problem if you can almost always actually soak overcast and therefor rarely take damage. But you are going to be hurting if you fail.
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#13
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 14-March 09 Member No.: 16,964 ![]() |
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#14
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 6-December 08 Member No.: 16,664 ![]() |
Not according to the SR4.5 rules, he doesn't. He gets to choose. Since he's already dealing 10 boxes of damage, there's no need for the extra success. Yes according to the rules you do, from the Hits thread (where you missed or ignored it) "RAW state, "The caster needs at least 1 net hit for the spell to take affect." (pg 195 BBB) On the next page (pg. 196 BBB) it goes on to say, "ANY net hits scored on the Spellcasting Test increases the DV by 1 per net hit." (emphasis mine)." |
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#15
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Old Man of the North ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,108 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 ![]() |
"The caster needs at least one net hit for the spell to take effect." The same text is in the BBB. Yes according to the rules you do, from the Hits thread (where you missed or ignored it) "RAW state, "The caster needs at least 1 net hit for the spell to take affect." (pg 195 BBB) On the next page (pg. 196 BBB) it goes on to say, "ANY net hits scored on the Spellcasting Test increases the DV by 1 per net hit." (emphasis mine)." But, now in SR4A, once you have scored the net hit(s) to achieve success, you can choose how many to apply to give extra damage. Opting for none is a viable choice. |
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#16
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 14-March 09 Member No.: 16,964 ![]() |
You are adding an additional step that is not present. According to you, the steps are as follows:
1. Roll Opposed Test (Magic + Spellcasting vs Willpower [+ Counterspelling, if applicable]) 2. Determine how many net hits are available. 3. If net hits available > 0, the spell succeeds. 4. Determine how many net hits to use to increase damage. This is incorrect. The correct steps are: 1. Roll Opposed Test (Magic + Spellcasting vs Willpower [+ Counterspelling, if applicable]) 2. Determine how many net hits are available. 3. Determine how many net hits to use. If you use 0 net hits, the spell fails. If you use at least 1 net hit, increase the damage and the drain by 1 per net hit used. It's a very minor change, but it's a very important one, procedurally. Net hits for damage are simultaneous with net hits for success. You can't separate them. |
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#17
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Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 ![]() |
Source?
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#18
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 14-March 09 Member No.: 16,964 ![]() |
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#19
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 ![]() |
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#20
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,336 Joined: 24-February 08 From: Albuquerque, New Mexico Member No.: 15,706 ![]() |
Except Drain is not increased by Net Hits used, but by Net Hits used for damage, and you get to choose how many you wish to use for damage.
It is entirely acceptable to achieve 1+ Net Hits, enough for the spell to take effect, and apply none of them to increasing the DV, & thus none of them apply for increasing the Drain. |
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#21
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 30-November 08 Member No.: 16,642 ![]() |
thanks for clearing that up. i'm not knowledgeable enough with the core rules yet to have picked up that difference.
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#22
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 14-March 09 Member No.: 16,964 ![]() |
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#23
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 ![]() |
As the whole concept of overcasting seems to be horribly broken, why not just ban it?
The game doesn't allow people to punch extra hard when they want to, or double the damage of their pistols. I'd probably also want to double drain on direct spells, as they get to ignore defenses. From a game point of view it makes no sense to have a way to attack someone that is the most effective and the least costly. |
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#24
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,168 Joined: 15-April 05 From: Helsinki, Finland Member No.: 7,337 ![]() |
Well, actually, called shots are allowed which can increase damage at a cost of DP. So yeah...they kinda can do that too.
And this: QUOTE Using a first aid kit in the middle of combat isn't a very good idea. Typically, after a force 10 overcast Manaball is tossed at the opposition, combat is either over or so damn close to it, the first aid kit in question will usually indeed not be used in combat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
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#25
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 ![]() |
The messed up part is that with the right gear, that physical damage from overcasting becomes Stun damage anyways. If you have your numbers right, you can reduce the damage to 1 Stun AFTER Overcasting.
OC --> Resist all but 1 Dmg (P) --> Trauma Damper conversion --> Result: 1 Stun Damage |
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