what's the big deal with overcasting? Options

[Roy Fokker]

i'm relatively new to SR4 gm'ing and i don't see what is so overpowered about overcasting in SR4 and SR4a regarding drain. i realize the drain turns physical and overcasting increasing the force (and thereby net hits) but people seem to state in the SR4a threads that doing this *helps* lower drain. can anyone explain this to me? thanks!

[Doc Byte]

Now it will start all over again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Malicant]

I will use a metaphor for casting direct combat spells to explain that.

Imagine you run a hundred yards. Now imagine you were sprinting those yards, reaching your goal faster, but being more exhausted. That was SR4 regular and overcasting. Now in SR4A if you run, you can exert yourself so much, that your heart stops beating. Sprinting on the other hand is exactly the same as before.

That is my friggin' problem.

[Andrew]

The problem which some people seem to have appears to be that by Overcsting a mage takes physical damage rather than subdual damage but not a large amount of it which they can then heal by using first aid. In addition by overcasting they can select a damage value which will automaticically take out the target with only 1 net success.
I thought I would have a stab at answering your question instead of the random sarcasm

[Neraph]

Let me see if I can help out a bit too.

With normal casting, you'd have to get a lot of hits to do dangerous amounts of damage (thereby increasing the drain to yourself dangerously as well). Ex: Magic 6 spellcaster casting a force 6 spell needs 6 successes (raising the Drain by 6 as well) to deal 12 damage.

With overcasting, your drain is physical, but the base damage code is going to be substantially larger as well. Ex: Magic 6 spellcaster casting force 12 spell needs 1 success (raising the Drain by 1, for a total of 2 less than the above case) to deal 13 damage.

So you actually do end up with less drain (albeit not by much, and its physical now), and you deal more damage with the end result by overcasting Direct Combat spells.

[Cain]

Let me repeat the example that Synner said is the case, now, in SR4.5:

Take Joe Mage, with Magic 5. He really wants to take out a target, so he throws a manabolt. He has a choice: he can throw a Force 5 manabolt, hope he scores 5 net successes, and then take 7S drain.

Or, he can overcast a Force 10 manabolt, use no net successes for damage, and only be facing a 5P drain.

In either case, a first-aid kit will probably be able to patch up whatever damage he takes, Since his Drain resistance pool remains exactly the same, he's more likely to soak the damage from the overcast spell.

See the problem?

[Uthred]

Or, he can overcast a Force 10 manabolt, use no net successes for damage, and only be facing a 5P drain.

He has to use at least 1 net success

[Degausser]

Or you could just use the Base BBB rules. I know it's not the newest errata, but it works. You only take drain based on the force (not the hits), and overcasting increases the effective drain as well as changing it to physical. Also, I was under the impression that drain COULDN'T be healed by first aid. Only time (or the Medicine skill) could heal it.

Also, I may be wrong, but here is some food for thought: physical damage is a heckova lot worse then stun. BECAUSE, on a shadowrun, people are likely to be shooting you. So if you get shot, then overcast, all that damage is forcing you towards physical overflow. On the other hand, stun and physical damage are kept track of seperatly, so you are less likely to die in the middle of a firefight.

[DWC]

Or you could just use the Base BBB rules. I know it's not the newest errata, but it works. You only take drain based on the force (not the hits), and overcasting increases the effective drain as well as changing it to physical. Also, I was under the impression that drain COULDN'T be healed by first aid. Only time (or the Medicine skill) could heal it.

Also, I may be wrong, but here is some food for thought: physical damage is a heckova lot worse then stun. BECAUSE, on a shadowrun, people are likely to be shooting you. So if you get shot, then overcast, all that damage is forcing you towards physical overflow. On the other hand, stun and physical damage are kept track of seperatly, so you are less likely to die in the middle of a firefight.

Thanks to how rediculous the FFBA and PPP armor stacking gets, most gunshot wounds are going to result in stun damage anyway.

Oh, and drain can't be magically healed. It can be first aided all day long.

[Malicant]

But doesn't that make First Aid magical, meaning, it can't heal drain? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Cain]

He has to use at least 1 net success

Not according to the SR4.5 rules, he doesn't. He gets to choose. Since he's already dealing 10 boxes of damage, there's no need for the extra success.

[TheDarkPhoenix]

Yeah Deguasser, you have a point. All the examples above assume that you haven't taken any damage before you overcast. Using a first aid kit in the middle of combat isn't a very good idea. In most shadowrun games, your going to end up taking some damage, especially if you just knocked out one guy with one hit. (Surely you would be a nice target for those corp guys now). I suppose you may encounter a problem if you can almost always actually soak overcast and therefor rarely take damage. But you are going to be hurting if you fail.

[Zurai]

Not according to the SR4.5 rules, he doesn't. He gets to choose. Since he's already dealing 10 boxes of damage, there's no need for the extra success.

"The caster needs at least one net hit for the spell to take effect."

The same text is in the BBB.

[Uthred]

Not according to the SR4.5 rules, he doesn't. He gets to choose. Since he's already dealing 10 boxes of damage, there's no need for the extra success.

Yes according to the rules you do, from the Hits thread (where you missed or ignored it)

"RAW state, "The caster needs at least 1 net hit for the spell to take affect." (pg 195 BBB) On the next page (pg. 196 BBB) it goes on to say, "ANY net hits scored on the Spellcasting Test increases the DV by 1 per net hit." (emphasis mine)."

[pbangarth]

"The caster needs at least one net hit for the spell to take effect."

The same text is in the BBB.

Yes according to the rules you do, from the Hits thread (where you missed or ignored it)

"RAW state, "The caster needs at least 1 net hit for the spell to take affect." (pg 195 BBB) On the next page (pg. 196 BBB) it goes on to say, "ANY net hits scored on the Spellcasting Test increases the DV by 1 per net hit." (emphasis mine)."

But, now in SR4A, once you have scored the net hit(s) to achieve success, you can choose how many to apply to give extra damage. Opting for none is a viable choice.

[Zurai]

You are adding an additional step that is not present. According to you, the steps are as follows:

1. Roll Opposed Test (Magic + Spellcasting vs Willpower [+ Counterspelling, if applicable])
2. Determine how many net hits are available.
3. If net hits available > 0, the spell succeeds.
4. Determine how many net hits to use to increase damage.

This is incorrect. The correct steps are:

1. Roll Opposed Test (Magic + Spellcasting vs Willpower [+ Counterspelling, if applicable])
2. Determine how many net hits are available.
3. Determine how many net hits to use. If you use 0 net hits, the spell fails. If you use at least 1 net hit, increase the damage and the drain by 1 per net hit used.

It's a very minor change, but it's a very important one, procedurally. Net hits for damage are simultaneous with net hits for success. You can't separate them.

[Draco18s]

Source?

[Zurai]

Source?

Source for there being multiple passes on how many net hits you use?

You can't un-use a net hit.

[kzt]

He has to use at least 1 net success

No, magic doesn't follow the basic game concepts. See the example of the motorbike on 174.

[Muspellsheimr]

Except Drain is not increased by Net Hits used, but by Net Hits used for damage, and you get to choose how many you wish to use for damage.

It is entirely acceptable to achieve 1+ Net Hits, enough for the spell to take effect, and apply none of them to increasing the DV, & thus none of them apply for increasing the Drain.

[Roy Fokker]

thanks for clearing that up. i'm not knowledgeable enough with the core rules yet to have picked up that difference.

[Zurai]

Except Drain is not increased by Net Hits used, but by Net Hits used for damage

Ah, good catch. Yes, you're right; objection withdrawn.

[kzt]

As the whole concept of overcasting seems to be horribly broken, why not just ban it?

The game doesn't allow people to punch extra hard when they want to, or double the damage of their pistols.

I'd probably also want to double drain on direct spells, as they get to ignore defenses. From a game point of view it makes no sense to have a way to attack someone that is the most effective and the least costly.

[ElFenrir]

Well, actually, called shots are allowed which can increase damage at a cost of DP. So yeah...they kinda can do that too.

And this:

Using a first aid kit in the middle of combat isn't a very good idea.

Typically, after a force 10 overcast Manaball is tossed at the opposition, combat is either over or so damn close to it, the first aid kit in question will usually indeed not be used in combat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[darthmord]

The messed up part is that with the right gear, that physical damage from overcasting becomes Stun damage anyways. If you have your numbers right, you can reduce the damage to 1 Stun AFTER Overcasting.

OC --> Resist all but 1 Dmg (P) --> Trauma Damper conversion --> Result: 1 Stun Damage