[rule clarification] The size of an astral form, Synner: your ruling is needed (again ... and again ;-)) Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[apple]

1) How does the astral form of a human shapechanged into a dog look? Like a normal human? Like a human squeezed into a dog? Like a dog with human features?

2) How does the astral aura of a human shapechanged into a dog look? I assume still a human?

3) Assuming astral projection, perception or dual natured critters: does the size and form of an astral form has any connection to the size and form of the physical form? Can a human have the astral size of a dog while being a human or can he have the astral size of a horse while being shapechanged into a dog? Or is the basic astral form for astral projecting, dual natured critters or astral perception tied to the physical form and its size?

4) How does the astral form of a shapechanged human interact with a (dual natured) ward? Can a human shapechanged into a dog walk through a very small opening (dog sized) in a dual natured ward with triggering an alarm? Or would he trigger an alert because his physical dog-body would pass, but his human sized astral form would crash agains the astral ward?

5) Can Masking (Initiate) change the size, "look" and form of an astral form so that you can pass through very small astral openings?

I am very sorry if this question has already been answered ... my search-fu was very weak. If there is any official ruling or clarification on this matter I would be glad if someone could point me to the corresponding discussion.

[Malicant]

1) his body was changed into a dog, so, his body looks like a dog. His Astral form on the other hand is an idealized image of himself, no matter what his body looks like. The form might look like a dog... kinda... but only if he has serious mental issues. Or uses Masking Metamagic to make his form look like a dog, whatever good that's supposed to do.

2) Still human, with the shapaechange spell being all around him, or whatever that looks like when you have a spell active on you.

3) Ever tried to explain a two dimensional being what the third dimension is? Very similar situation. As long as you try to understand the astral by using physical laws, you will not get it. Not that there is much to get besides: It's different, you can't get it.

4) You're still thinking physical while on the astral. There is no small opening that you can squeez through by changing the appearance of your form. Just because you appear to be smaller, you still would not be smaller. Does that help? At all?

5) since this is basically 4) all over again: aw hell naw.

Boy, this is almost as difficult to explain as what paradigms in Mage:tAsc were supposed to do.

p.s.: you should have seen that one coming, me answering first and stuff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[darthmord]

I've always assumed #1 - #3 kept the details the same as the physical form unless Masking was used to change them. It's very clear that you appear on the Astral in **your** idealized form.

As for Wards & holes with #4 & #5... they are all or nothing. Either the space is warded or it is not. There's no 'mouse hole' or 'doggie door' in a ward. Masking is what lets you change your Astral appearance.

[knasser]

In the novel Never Deal With A Dragon (the very first Shadowrun novel, in fact), Sam Werner is still getting used to his Astral sight when he spies a dragon shapeshifted into the form of a human male having dinner in a restaurant with a female companion. He sees a dragon curled up and sitting at the table, wine glass in hand, overlain and simultaneous with the businessman it's turned itself into.

I'd go with something like that and if a 30m dragon is shapechanged into a human and walks within a 10m sq. ward, well I'll work out what happens then when it happens. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Adarael]

I've always assumed #1 - #3 kept the details the same as the physical form unless Masking was used to change them. It's very clear that you appear on the Astral in **your** idealized form.

As for Wards & holes with #4 & #5... they are all or nothing. Either the space is warded or it is not. There's no 'mouse hole' or 'doggie door' in a ward. Masking is what lets you change your Astral appearance.

While that's true of wards, that's not the only way to block a space. Ivy, for instance, can be grown over the the surface of a building, and will block the passage of astral bodies through it. So sizing matters then. Or say if one is entering a buried facility beneath the earth that still has a ventilation shaft, it might matter, because you can't phase through earth, either.*

I would suggest that masking will not change your size, only your APPARENT size. Anything you couldn't normally fit through, you can't suddenly 'imagine' yourself to fit through, because you're incapable of changing the fundamental nature of your aura, only disguising it. Or, to put it another way, the 'metaphor of sight and size' in the Astral Plane doesn't ACTUALLY matter, but it's a convenient way to imagine areas you are capable of entering and areas you are not.

*You CAN actually phase through earth and ivy, it just takes way long.

[Draco18s]

In the novel Never Deal With A Dragon (the very first Shadowrun novel, in fact), Sam Werner is still getting used to his Astral sight when he spies a dragon shapeshifted into the form of a human male having dinner in a restaurant with a female companion. He sees a dragon curled up and sitting at the table, wine glass in hand, overlain and simultaneous with the businessman it's turned itself into.

In some sense Haesslich's astral form WAS compressed into the space the size of a human, otherwise all that would have been seen of him would have been one monstrous foreleg (there's even an artist's rendering available in the book), but at the same time that astral form WAS its normal size.

Best way to put it would to be to read Dealing with Dragons (by Patricia C. Wrede). There's a part where Cimorene and Kazul go to meet a witch. Kazul enters the little hut by the backdoor because she's too large to fit through the front door. While neither Kazul got smaller nor the door got bigger, the dragon did manage to squeeze her way into the living room (whereupon a half dozen cats took up residence).

Conventional physics do not apply here, at all.

[knasser]

In some sense Haesslich's astral form WAS compressed into the space the size of a human, otherwise all that would have been seen of him would have been one monstrous foreleg (there's even an artist's rendering available in the book), but at the same time that astral form WAS its normal size.

Hasselich - yes, that was the dragon's name. Good memory! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I remember the art piece that showed it. I remember at the time being annoyed that such a good book had such childish and unnecessary pictures in it.

Anyway, game metaphysics are fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

K.

[Draco18s]

Hasselich - yes, that was the dragon's name. Good memory! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I only read the book a few months ago, I also wrote the SR Wiki article on him. Tessien was the feathered serpent.

I remember the art piece that showed it. I remember at the time being annoyed that such a good book had such childish and unnecessary pictures in it.

The odd piece of artwork in a novel actually excites me. Not a whole lot of them, or it gets to be too much; one per chapter is generally ok, depending on the length of the chapter (Raptor Red is one example).

Anyway, game metaphysics are fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Indeed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[BIG BAD BEESTE]

OK, on the astral you are what you are. It's a reflection of your true self. If you're a human you'll show up as a human and yes, you'll have the same dimensions as your human form. No you can't genie yourself into a bottle, but you can hide or alter your aura if you're an Initiate and have the Masking metamagic technique. Heck, with that you can be astrally active and appear mundane, but that kinda freaks mages out.

The key to most of your questions however, revolves around your physical form being altered to a different size. Ok, first up remember that to be affected by wards and suchlike you have to be astrally active. So unless you're dual natured, simply don't astrally perceive and your dog-shaped body can hop over the ward, even through the catflap etc. you're not astrally present so the ward can't stop you. (Better deactivate any foci first too.)

As for Hattie being human sized, well he was a dragon and that was an early 1st Edition novel. You could do a lot of strange things back then. they've thrashed out many a logical theorem about astral interactivity and magial laws since then. (Gawd, 20 years already now. Boy do I feel OLD!)

[ornot]

I think a pertinent point is that even though astral stuff is described in the book using visual metaphors, this is simply for readability. They might as well describe everything in terms of sound (you can hear auras, each person has their own theme tune, the style of which is determined by their mood). It is a sixth sense, independent of the usual 5 senses we are mostly familiar with.

That being said, someone shapechanged into a dog would have their normal aura, perhaps overlain with the aura of the spell that had made them into a dog. Masking would disguise their aura in some manner, as determined by the user. A ward should not have holes in it at all. I can't see anything in the rules or the fluff that would suggest that there was an option for a hole. Quite the reverse, in fact. If a given mage has a dual natured doggy that he wishes to allow in and out of his house, he can have a physical doggy door, and simply construct the ward to allow his pet through it.

YMMV, as GMs may run this differently.

[apple]

/push ... I would love to hear an official answer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)