Shadowrun 4 Anniversary Changes Options

[crizh]

No one likes getting jabbed in the ballsac by the nerf bat.

Amen.

[crizh]

Can I make an observation? It's genuinely not a criticism.

Apart from Hermit, who might well argue black was white for a good fight, kidding, almost everybody in all 17 threads discussing this who thinks the nerfs are a good idea are people who haven't had much to say up until this week. Very few have a post count of over a thousand.

The folks who dislike some or all of the changes are almost without exception people who are on here every day discussing SR4 and what they like and dislike about it and how they would like to see it changed.

It seems odd that the most vocal members of this community are the ones who disagree with the changes.

Surely the changes should reflect the problems the dev's see thrashed to death here every other day?

(Should that be a question mark. I'm not sure. Not enough sleep. Or too much beer....)

[Muspellsheimr]

(Should that be a question mark. I'm not sure. Not enough sleep. Or too much beer....)

Or not enough beer....


Interesting point, though, that I had not noticed. I wonder if it should be taken as in our favor, or against us.

[de4dmeta1]

@crizh: Personally, I think post count has very little to do with it. I've seen first posts from people on various forums with more thoughtful content than the 1000+ post records of others on the same forums. So someone hasn't spent as much time discussing things on a forum - might be a habitual lurker like me. It's more what's posted than how many posts have been made. Like you said, it's more observation than criticism, but post count is about as relevant as join date and minor spelling errors.


As for the topic, here's my thoughts;

Regarding the increased costs of attribute advancement, I can see why, from a balance standpoint, something along those lines would be done. I think that upping the karma cost to [stat]x5 was a well-thought out move, but the issue is where it's unsupported by the rest of the ruleset. SR4 already wasn't exactly the fastest in character advancement - at least, not without GM/group intervention and house rules. Upping the cost of raising attributes, while also raising basic recommended karma rewards[even if by a lesser degree] would have easily put more emphasis on skills than was previously. That being said, it's a bit of a step sideways, but one that can be lived with. If necessary from the group's standpoint, it's simply changed with a rule or two. Admittedly, it might mess with characters used both at home and in Missions, but there shouldn't be much conflict there; provided that people clearly understand the differences they'll find between their table and a 'public' one.

As for the issue with direct combat spells, it's a bit too variable the way it stands. I think a flat drain increase may have worked better, but I can't really judge that very well - the only magicals I've ever played were either Adepts or indirect specialists. Might run this past my almost-always-the-machine-gun-manabolt-mage friend, see what he thinks of it.

Lastly, our friends the in-line adverts - they would have benefitted from a tad of Jackpoint-style framing, maybe with one or two lines in-character before the existing texts. As for their placement in the book though, I don't think that's really so much the issue. I find the complete lack of integration with the rest of the partial-in-character descriptions more jarring than anything else. So, leave them on their pages, but maybe integrate them a bit better, if possible.

[Muspellsheimr]

Although certainly not universally true, it is probably far more likely that someone with a large post count and older join date has a greater understanding of what these issues are, & why they are issues - thus having a more informed point of view.

Yes, there are likely exceptions, but I would be willing to bet that the large majority of those with recent join dates (& to a lesser extent low post counts) know very little, if anything, regarding these issues and their effects on the game.

[Leehouse]

I don't really have a problem with the changes perse. But in my game I'm currently planning on decreasing the cost to raise skills, and skill groups(thinking 1x and 4x though might make it 2x and 4x) and having the 5x for attributes(maybe 4x if I go with 2x for skills) I'm still finding a way to not smack around awakened characters with this change, anyone with suggestions I'd be glad to hear them(considering the boost to magic attribute for adepts when initiating as they seem to have very few worthwhile metamagics). As for the casting changes, I don't think I'll be using them, though I've been thinking of trying a change for direct spells that I saw earlier today. Namely that for overcasting ever point into the overcasting area adds f rather than f/2. If that is too heavy damage wise, maybe f2/3(force/1.5). I don't have it, but the advertisements wouldn't bother me if I did.

Edit: Just to add, I'm considering using Muspell's adaptation, as every character in my group are meta's and they haven't nearly maxed out some of their good attributes and those will areas of advancement they will want to pursue

[Zurai]

But in my game I'm currently planning on decreasing the cost to raise skills, and skill groups(thinking 1x and 4x...

Just a note: that change would make skill groups either more expensive than raising skills individually (for groups with only 3 skills), or the exact same cost as raising skills individually (for the groups with 4). Since the only benefit to using skill groups is the reduced cost, that pretty much eliminates groups from the game.

[Medicineman]

I Think the new Attribute Cost of x5 is better in Balance with the Skills &Skillgroups(better ,but not perfectly balanced)
IF Chars gain more Karma(because this also means that Skills become cheaper and will be raised earlier ImO)
If what is in my Signature will be promoted and officially in the new SR4A it will solve some of the Issues
Drain of DirectCombatSpells...
It would have been easier to just raise the Drain one or two Points....
Ads....
If they are essential move them to the Back

Hough !
Medicineman

[Fuchs]

Post Count doesn't mean a thing.

[Cardul]

Post Count doesn't mean a thing.

I agree with this.
I mean, really, most of the so-called discussions I see on here are a few players constantly bring up the same issues over and over and over again, and, when someone says they do not have a problem with what these people have a problem with, they try to goad the person into conforming to their beliefs. I am sorry, but, I have no problems with Long Shots, Hand of God, or the Matrix. I know that, by most of the people who are posting here, regularly, I am supposed to find the matrix unworkable, and am supposed to find Long Shots and Hand of God to be the most broken things short of the Emotitoy, Bloodzilla, and Agent Smith/Hackastack. I do not. Since I do not agree with the vast majority of active Dumpshock forumites on these defining issues of the game, these things that are the most important things other then min-maxing your character so you are rolling 20+ dice to do anything, why am I going to sit around and post endlessly trying to argue my point that the average PC build is not the Power Build. In fact, this is actively discouraged at my table, since flawed characters are more fun to play the character, since they have personality, as opposed to the "I roll 20 dice to shoot things...every problem can be solved by shooting it" mentality that comes with an optimized and extremely focused character.

These changes, in fact, are very good for at my table. I know that, since I have read them, and been reading the PDF, I have spoken with my players, and THEY like them. Unfortunately, since my players are not here every day(getting flamed by the power gamers who feel every roll should involve 20+ dice, or the SR3 Hold Outs who do nothing but flame anything SR4 related), crizh says their opinions do not matter? Because I just do not flame and argue to people when I say my piece and they do not want to agree with me, my opinion does not matter to Crizh? Well...honestly, you know who's opinions I think matter more then Crizh's? The opinions of people I know RL, see face to face every week, and play with, or run games with.

I like the changes, my players like the changes. Face it, the devs have even realized how huge a problem the people are here that they did not even put a reference to dumpshock in the new book.

[hermit]

My system does not give metatypes a discount. What it does alter the base system so it does not charge them twice.

Such characters have already paid for their bonuses to attributes, so why are you charging them a second time to increase those attributes (everything above what the Human would be paying, being part of this second cost).

It gives them a huge discount compared to the current system, which does not take metahuman boni into account either, and would totally nerf the human as a PC for anything but Mr. Lucky builds. Oh, would Humans get their Edge racial bonus taken into account, too?

Apart from Hermit, who might well argue black was white for a good fight, kidding, almost everybody in all 17 threads discussing this who thinks the nerfs are a good idea are people who haven't had much to say up until this week. Very few have a post count of over a thousand.

And yet, the silent majority seems to be pro changes. BTW, what about Fuchs? He is pro changes too (and has well over 1000 posts).

As for posters, Angier has been lurking for a while but posting frequently in the German forums for some two years, and medicine man is staple inventory of any German SR board of note, and has been for long times. Dunno about the others.

Maybe some of those voting pro are just not interested in arguing their points, seeing they are with catalyst and feeling their views have already been expressed well enough in the changes, so they don't see any need to complain?

Lastly, our friends the in-line adverts - they would have benefitted from a tad of Jackpoint-style framing, maybe with one or two lines in-character before the existing texts. As for their placement in the book though, I don't think that's really so much the issue. I find the complete lack of integration with the rest of the partial-in-character descriptions more jarring than anything else. So, leave them on their pages, but maybe integrate them a bit better, if possible.

Yeah, that would be nice.

Although certainly not universally true, it is probably far more likely that someone with a large post count and older join date has a greater understanding of what these issues are, & why they are issues - thus having a more informed point of view.

Yes, there are likely exceptions, but I would be willing to bet that the large majority of those with recent join dates (& to a lesser extent low post counts) know very little, if anything, regarding these issues and their effects on the game.

And that's coming from someone who's joined three years after me AND has a lower post count. You certainly cannot know SR as well as I do (a statistical fact!), so get lost, welp. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Seriously, the point you wanted to make is very arrogant, so don't. You can learn SR in places other than Dumpshock, you know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Caadium]

Post Count doesn't mean a thing.

Thank you.

To assume that my post count or account creation date somehow suggest my ability to grasp the depth of the changes being made is ridiculous. Those 2 things don't tell you how long I've been playing, what access I've had to this and other game systems, or quite simply how smart I may or may not be.

It was argued that the people that seem to disagree with the changes are those with higher post counts, and are therefore the most informed and understanding of the issues. The irony of this suggestion is that at the top of this thread there is a poll that is showing a clear majority of votes in favor of the changes. Having a majority of posts in no way means that you will or will not represent the majority opinion.

[Fuchs]

I like the karam cahnges, and I'll decide on the spellcasting changes once I discuss this with the player of the mage in my face to face group, and the mage player in the Caribbean Shadows PbP campaign.

As far as the other changes are concerned I'll probably have to wait for the erratas to notice all changes.

[knasser]

Well these are quite telling results. It seems there is a quiet majority that likes the new changes on the whole.

I feel there probably should have been an additional category where people could just state their general feeling for the changes over all. There is a lot in there that I like and I don't wish one objection of mine to overshadow that.

For the Attributes, I think either a system like Muspellheimr's (minus the penalties to PCs which have reduced attributes such as a troll trying to raise Charisma which seems overly punitive), or the existing system as is are both better than what was there pre-errata. I can see merit on either side of the argument for meta-discounts, but we probably don't need yet more trolls with maxed out Body.

The advertisements... well I was the one that originally raised this. Having mulled over the dev's reply on this one I'm less annoyed by it. I've been kind of primed to be sensitive to this by certain other companies that try to force you into buying all the supplement books. Didn't like the impression that Shadowrun was taking the same approach. Contrary to what others have said, you can indeed play a very good game with just the BBB. I would like to see the ads at the back - you could get them all on one page - but I'm less annoyed than I was.

The drain issue. I voted for flat drain increase. I'm not opposed to increasing the drain slightly if it's felt that Direct Combat spells are too powerful, and that's probably reasonable. The increase in Object Resistance already helps balance the Indirect and Direct balance in a characteristically Shadowrun manner (i.e. each is more useful than the other in the right circumstances). However, I don't need to add an extra step to the drain process where players stop to analyse likely drain from specified hits vs. amount of damage. I also don't like them to have quite that level of control over specifying how much damage they do to a target: "I do ten boxes of damage please." I also prefer the feel of overcasting being the additional effort and risk that a mage takes, rather than being a preferred option. It also becomes inconsistent with other spells where overcasting *is* the riskier option.

If there were any chance of this being amended to a flat increase to drain I would be happier.

Object Resistance and modification limit to programs / hardware should also have been in this poll. I like both of these changes but I know some others have a problem with one or both of them.

Peace,

K.

[knasser]

Post count means little. Someone with a high post count will probably have a good grasp of the rules and the context for those rules. But this does not mean that someone with a low post count does not. Therefore it is not possible to draw useful conclusions by comparing people's post counts.

And for the record, having played since 1st edition (skipped 3rd) and approaching a post count of 3,000, I have to say that nearly all of the changes I have liked. I don't like the strange thing they've done with Direct Combat spells and the ads ticked me off a bit, but other than that, I'm happy.

The lifting and sprinting rules are still broken and the "average" attribute is still pegged at 3, but those aren't changes - just long standing irritations.

[Demonseed Elite]

It seems odd that the most vocal members of this community are the ones who disagree with the changes.

That seems odd to you?!?

That's the way Dumpshock has always been. Were you here when SR4 came out?

[ElFenrir]

And for the record, having played since 1st edition (skipped 3rd) and approaching a post count of 3,000, I have to say that nearly all of the changes I have liked. I don't like the strange thing they've done with Direct Combat spells and the ads ticked me off a bit, but other than that, I'm happy.

While I disagree with the changes, I do think that postcount might not come into play too much. I too have played Shadowrun for awhile-15 years or so, perhaps not as long as some, but certainly a long time, I'd say, and I just...disagree with a lot of these changes, and my postcount isn't particularly huge. I however am biased-playing not so often, we never had a problem with fast advancement, nor characters starting out quite competent in their chosen field(which for us, is 15-18 dice.) Again, I think I can see why a table who played weekly and handed out 9-10 karma a week might find x3 too fast.

[crizh]

And yet, the silent majority seems to be pro changes. BTW, what about Fuchs? He is pro changes too (and has well over 1000 posts).

Silent my bum.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Fuchs doesn't use karma in his games.

He may think the new system is an improvement but he still thinks the entire karma system is unusable.

For those that have lost the plot over what I said at the top of the page, maybe you should go read it again.

To respond to your criticism however, it is the people with low post counts who are most likely to still be making basic mistakes about SR4 like Drain can't be healed with First Aid.

I saw that happen twice yesterday.

And many who appear to disagree with my antipathy towards this new edition are actually against at least one of the changes. Read Knasser's last post for example.

I still haven't seen a reasonable fix for the damage this does to Mages, TM's and particularly Adepts. Hermit thinks they are already broken and needed a good kick in the nuts but it hasn't been my impression that is the consensus here.

How are Adepts supposed to cope with a 67% increase in the cost of Power Points?

[Fuchs]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Fuchs doesn't use karma in his games.

He may think the new system is an improvement but he still thinks the entire karma system is unusable.

I use karma in many of my online games, I am using my experiences in those for my stance on the karma changes.

[hermit]

Silent my bum.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Fuchs doesn't use karma in his games.

Yes, silent, because most of those who vote pro change do not comment it in the thread.

Also, thanks to Fuchs for clarifying.

I still haven't seen a reasonable fix for the damage this does to Mages, TM's and particularly Adepts.

Why fix what was likely the intended outcome?

How are Adepts supposed to cope with a 67% increase in the cost of Power Points?

Accept a slower progression and use very selective augmentation if they really need that power quickly?

Maybe this is not your and your supporters' intention, crizh, but it seems to me like you are ranting against those rules changes for crippling characters built exploiting the imbalance before. And since you don't find the support you had hoped for in this poll, you start to insult any who oppose you on a kindergarten level. Think running about yelling "newfags are made of suck" will help your cause much?

[Angier]

Actually Adepts are not worse touched by this changes as the most expensive powers have been greatly reduced in power point prices. And if you think your groups Adepts are advancing to slow, how about using the optional rule for Adept Initiation?

[Critias]

As far as post counts and cynicism go -- well, duh. The longer someone's been around, the more active they've been posting, the odds are the longer they've been playing the game. The longer they've been playing the game, the longer the game's been shifting and sliding and changing under their feet, moving more and more away from whatever the game was when they started, and the longer they've been playing the larger their emotional investment, the more likely they are to look back fondly on old memories, wallow in nostalgia about the good old days, yadda yadda yadda.

So it's only natural that -- as a trend (not a rule, no one get bent outta shape, here) -- the longer you're here (and by "here" I don't just mean Dumpshock, but any RPG or wargame forum, really), the louder you bitch.

Does someone's opinion count more if they've been here longer? Of course not. Just the opposite, in fact.

Game companies aren't looking to keep old players nearly as much as they're looking to drag in new players, in fact, so maybe the opinion of (relative) newbies should count more, if anything, looking at it from a business standpoint. Someone who's been playing the game for seventeen or eighteen of its twenty year history has already spent the money to do so, and is likely to pick up...what? Two, three sourcebooks a year, if they don't keep growing up and gaining new bills to pay and losing their hobby time? Someone who's just getting into a game, though, they've got a whole edition to pick up, with core rulebooks, every supplement from recent years, yadda yadda yadda, and a long gaming life spread out in front of 'em.

If I was a game company, I know who I'd market to, and it's not us bitter old fucks who used to think dirty thoughts about Sally Tsung a couple decades ago. They've already got us hooked, if ever they were going to get us. Game companies today are after the little bastards who were still swimmin' inside their mom's belly when Twist was callin' up his Great Ghost Dance (or who weren't even gleams in their daddy's eyes yet), that have a good ten years of disposable income in front of them and none of the baggage we do about edition changes and crap like that.

[crizh]

Actually Adepts are not worse touched by this changes as the most expensive powers have been greatly reduced in power point prices. And if you think your groups Adepts are advancing to slow, how about using the optional rule for Adept Initiation?

A select group of Powers that were easier to replace with 'ware than buy have been reduced 20-25%.

Averaged across the board I'm pretty sure that'll come out at about a 50% increase in overall resource expenditure for Adepts after Char-gen.

[crizh]

As far as post counts and cynicism go -- well, duh. The longer someone's been around, the more active they've been posting, the odds are the longer they've been playing the game. The longer they've been playing the game, the longer the game's been shifting and sliding and changing under their feet, moving more and more away from whatever the game was when they started, and the longer they've been playing the larger their emotional investment, the more likely they are to look back fondly on old memories, wallow in nostalgia about the good old days, yadda yadda yadda.

So it's only natural that -- as a trend (not a rule, no one get bent outta shape, here) -- the longer you're here (and by "here" I don't just mean Dumpshock, but any RPG or wargame forum, really), the louder you bitch.

Does someone's opinion count more if they've been here longer? Of course not. Just the opposite, in fact.

Game companies aren't looking to keep old players nearly as much as they're looking to drag in new players, in fact, so maybe the opinion of (relative) newbies should count more, if anything, looking at it from a business standpoint. Someone who's been playing the game for seventeen or eighteen of its twenty year history has already spent the money to do so, and is likely to pick up...what? Two, three sourcebooks a year, if they don't keep growing up and gaining new bills to pay and losing their hobby time? Someone who's just getting into a game, though, they've got a whole edition to pick up, with core rulebooks, every supplement from recent years, yadda yadda yadda, and a long gaming life spread out in front of 'em.

If I was a game company, I know who I'd market to, and it's not us bitter old fucks who used to think dirty thoughts about Sally Tsung a couple decades ago. They've already got us hooked, if ever they were going to get us. Game companies today are after the little bastards who were still swimmin' inside their mom's belly when Twist was callin' up his Great Ghost Dance (or who weren't even gleams in their daddy's eyes yet), that have a good ten years of disposable income in front of them and none of the baggage we do about edition changes and crap like that.

You are not wrong.

I hate you for it but you're not wrong.

I'm going to go and get out the Spectrum emulator and be cynical in a corner for a bit.

[Bull]

As far as post counts and cynicism go -- well, duh. The longer someone's been around, the more active they've been posting, the odds are the longer they've been playing the game. The longer they've been playing the game, the longer the game's been shifting and sliding and changing under their feet, moving more and more away from whatever the game was when they started, and the longer they've been playing the larger their emotional investment, the more likely they are to look back fondly on old memories, wallow in nostalgia about the good old days, yadda yadda yadda.

So it's only natural that -- as a trend (not a rule, no one get bent outta shape, here) -- the longer you're here (and by "here" I don't just mean Dumpshock, but any RPG or wargame forum, really), the louder you bitch.

Does someone's opinion count more if they've been here longer? Of course not. Just the opposite, in fact.

Game companies aren't looking to keep old players nearly as much as they're looking to drag in new players, in fact, so maybe the opinion of (relative) newbies should count more, if anything, looking at it from a business standpoint. Someone who's been playing the game for seventeen or eighteen of its twenty year history has already spent the money to do so, and is likely to pick up...what? Two, three sourcebooks a year, if they don't keep growing up and gaining new bills to pay and losing their hobby time? Someone who's just getting into a game, though, they've got a whole edition to pick up, with core rulebooks, every supplement from recent years, yadda yadda yadda, and a long gaming life spread out in front of 'em.

If I was a game company, I know who I'd market to, and it's not us bitter old fucks who used to think dirty thoughts about Sally Tsung a couple decades ago. They've already got us hooked, if ever they were going to get us. Game companies today are after the little bastards who were still swimmin' inside their mom's belly when Twist was callin' up his Great Ghost Dance (or who weren't even gleams in their daddy's eyes yet), that have a good ten years of disposable income in front of them and none of the baggage we do about edition changes and crap like that.

Nice post, Critias. Very nice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)