Are Skillwires overpowered? Options

[Lindt]

p.320 Skillsofts
Change the description to:
"A skillsoft program is a programmed/recorded skill - as in, a person's knowledge and memory (including "muscle memory"). When used in conjunction with the proper cyberware, skillsofts enhance users skills, adding their Rating to the users Skill, subject to augmented maximums.
Users may not use Edge on any test using skillsofts."

That would be nearly the LAST thing you'd ever want to do. Can you say pistols adept? Pistols 6 +imp pistols 6+ pistols soft 4+ enhanced articulation+ reflex recorder?? Screw edge, that's 18 dice.

Its not broken, it was just not quite cost inhibitory enough yet.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Suddenly, a couple skills at rating 5 (personalized) sounds less intimidating.

The Personalized Option doesn't even provide an additional level of Skill, just a Bonus Die.

[Adarael]

That immediately rams into the Augmented Maximum limit, Lindt. With Pistols 6, the augmented maximum is 9. Enhanced Articulation doesn't add to Combat Skills in 4th Edition, sothat's out. I'm betting Reflex Recorder - unlike Improved Skill - also adds directly to the skill rather than the dice pool, so that'd part of the 'bumping into augmented maximum'.

Additionally, if we're talking starting PC, the Improved Pistols is limited to 4 or 5 rather than 6 due to magic loss from cyber implantation - I just can't remember if it costs over 1 essence for rating 3 or not.

So realistically, it's Pistols 6 + Improved Pistols 4-5 + Pistol Soft 3. That's only 13-14 dice. Not significantly different from Pistols 6 + Imp. Pistols 6 + Reflex Recorder at that level of dice.

[Gunslinger057]

That would be nearly the LAST thing you'd ever want to do. Can you say pistols adept? Pistols 6 +imp pistols 6+ pistols soft 4+ enhanced articulation+ reflex recorder?? Screw edge, that's 18 dice.

Its not broken, it was just not quite cost inhibitory enough yet.

First of all, the skill OR the skillsoft is used, one cannot be used to augment the other. In other words, you can only use your inherent skill of six or the skill of 4 given to you by the skillsofts. Second of all, given the rules for maximum modified skill ratings given on p. 118 SR4A, you can only modify the skill pistols 6 to a maximum of 9, or 1.5x the current skill level. To my knowledge, skillsofts cannot recieve modifiers from, say, adept abilities or reflex recorders, as they are not learned abilities. The enhanced articulation provides a dice pool modifier, so it works with both cases, I think.

So, the character you listed above can only get a max skill in pistols of 4 if using the skillsoft (5 if personalized), or a skill in pistols of 9 if using the natural skill plus augments. The extra abilities/'ware to increase the skill above nine are therefore wasted.

In conclusion, not 18 dice, but rather 5 or 10. Adding a high agility to that still grants a more than respectable dice pool though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

heh, yeah, there's so many rules violations in there, that even i can see without having ever played the wretched 4th . .
and no, enhanced artwinculation does not give bonus dice to shooting things anymore
butg still, do some clever tinkering and for 50 build points and one day time in game you can have most, if not all, available skills

[Muspellsheimr]

That would be nearly the LAST thing you'd ever want to do. Can you say pistols adept? Pistols 6 +imp pistols 6+ pistols soft 4+ enhanced articulation+ reflex recorder?? Screw edge, that's 18 dice.

Its not broken, it was just not quite cost inhibitory enough yet.

Pistols 6 (9) is your end result there. Improved Pistols increases the Skill, & is subject to Augmented Maximums. Reflex Recorder increases the Skill, & is subject to Augmented Maximums. Enhanced Articulation does not provide any benefit to Combat skills. And with my change, Skillwires increases the Skill, & is subject to Augmented Maximums.

Skill Augmented Maximum also happens to be current natural rating x 1.5, so to receive a full +3, you must have invested in the 6 Ranks natural.

[Adarael]

Holy shit, so it does.

Man. I was operating under the old, pre-errata version where it just adds dice.
Craptacular. Now I have to break my players hearts.

[Zaranthan]

That ruins the flavor of skillwires, though. You have to have a natural skill of 2 just to use a rating 1 'soft, not economical at all for corps to have chipped wageslaves. Maybe call it bonus dice and cap the ratings at 2 or 3. That way players get to boost their pools and corps get to pay minimum wage for skilled labor.

[Draco18s]

And with my change, Skillwires increases the Skill, & is subject to Augmented Maximums.

That's shit. No one ever would be able to take (full) advantage of skillwires rating 4.

[Kanada Ten]

Wouldn't a quick and easy nerf be to limit hits to the Program Rating? That might be over doing it even, but it's already an optional rule (sort of)...

[suppenhuhn]

p.320 Skillsofts
Change the description to:
"A skillsoft program is a programmed/recorded skill - as in, a person's knowledge and memory (including "muscle memory"). When used in conjunction with the proper cyberware, skillsofts enhance users skills, adding their Rating to the users Skill, subject to augmented maximums.
Users may not use Edge on any test using skillsofts."

Now that would totally break them.
Everyone and their grandma would get em at rating 3 to start out with lvl 9 in their favorite skills.

[WeaverMount]

IDK, I like it. personally I think it works well with the setting. First off I don't see every wage-slave getting cyber. They need to bend and scrape for the privilege of becoming an indentured 'borg ... which means that it's the people with a little aptitude(stat of 3-4) who self taught themselves up to a skill of 1 or 2 (do able most everything you'd want a grunt doing). IMO this is fine. I also like it that it's the it's the people with a little skill aptitude and inititive who /could/ in theory be good at what they do who get chipped at stop advancing; very distopian.
Also I'm totally fine with ware and adept powered being required to max out a skill. Adept do get the short end of the stick on this mechanically but hey what else is new in SR4. Also in genre and one of the novels learning to work with your chips is the only way to become the best this lets that happen. Does it make skill wires even more of must have? yes, but at the same time it also keeps them from eroding character roles.

[Muspellsheimr]

Does it make skill wires even more of must have? yes, but at the same time it also keeps them from eroding character roles.

While my change certainly makes them more attractive, it is in a different way & I do not feel they are a must have. That second part, however, is exactly what the change was intended to do.

[suppenhuhn]

IDK, I like it. personally I think it works well with the setting. First off I don't see every wage-slave getting cyber. They need to bend and scrape for the privilege of becoming an indentured 'borg ... which means that it's the people with a little aptitude(stat of 3-4) who self taught themselves up to a skill of 1 or 2 (do able most everything you'd want a grunt doing). IMO this is fine. I also like it that it's the it's the people with a little skill aptitude and inititive who /could/ in theory be good at what they do who get chipped at stop advancing; very distopian.
Also I'm totally fine with ware and adept powered being required to max out a skill. Adept do get the short end of the stick on this mechanically but hey what else is new in SR4. Also in genre and one of the novels learning to work with your chips is the only way to become the best this lets that happen. Does it make skill wires even more of must have? yes, but at the same time it also keeps them from eroding character roles.

Why shouldn't every wageslave receive such cyberware?
It's way cheaper then training them for one job. It allows them to be capable of doing almost every job in case you need more manpower in other departments, needs no refresher courses, adapts to new techniques in the blink of an eye and on top of that he's completely dependant on the corporation.

I also fail to see how that ware erodes character roles.
The specialist will have a higher skill rating, probably with specialisation. He will have the higher attribute. He can get reflex recorders or use adept powers to raise his skill and/or his pool.
It's like saying a face erodes the role of the streetsam because he fires a pistol.
On top of that being versatile now comes with a hefty pricetag. Most players would likely invest that sort of cash in upgrading their wares so the jack of all trades will in the end only be mediocre at everything.

[Neraph]

The Personalized Option doesn't even provide an additional level of Skill, just a Bonus Die.

Potatoe tomatoe. Same effect.

EDIT: And for the record, Alpha-Grade r5 Skillwires cost 20,000 and only cost 0.64 Essence (and can be obtained by Restricted Gear).

[Werewindlefr]

10.000 nuyens per level, for something that's implanted in every wage slave? It makes little sense to me. Sure, it solves the balance problem in some way, but it goes against the "cheap and universal wageslave skillwires" flavor that I've grown to love.

I'll stick with the old prices and my "1s and 2s count towards glitches" houserule.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Potatoe tomatoe. Same effect.

Not even close.

[WeaverMount]

@Werewindlefr: software costs for corps are completely artificial, as someone else said earlier "Microsoft doesn't pay for each copy of office" and Ares as a whole isn't out 10k per rating per head in any real way either. I'm not really going anywhere with this just pointing out that you can have new RAW and your fluff without contradiction.

@suppenhuhn

Why shouldn't every wageslave receive such cyberware?
It's way cheaper then training them for one job. It allows them to be capable of doing almost every job in case you need more manpower in other departments, needs no refresher courses, adapts to new techniques in the blink of an eye and on top of that he's completely dependant on the corporation.

Life is just that cheap in this setting. If you run around putting chips in peoples head you have to hold onto them for a couple years to get your money back. You might even have to think about health care and working conditions. Much easier to higher on of the hundreds of people who are over qualified for the job you want done. And training? phef that's soooo 20th century. Higher Contract someone with the skill you need already and give them a copy of "Daily Life at the Ares Plant" rating 4 knowsot because those only take trodes. No training, no ware, no investment. It takes a doctor and team hours to install one set of wires. A manager can easily vet 30 people down to 5ish highers in that time. That is why not ever wageslave has cyber, even though you are right that it would be crazy useful.

I also fail to see how that ware erodes character roles.
The specialist will have a higher skill rating, probably with specialisation. He will have the higher attribute. He can get reflex recorders or use adept powers to raise his skill and/or his pool.
It's like saying a face erodes the role of the streetsam because he fires a pistol.
On top of that being versatile now comes with a hefty pricetag. Most players would likely invest that sort of cash in upgrading their wares so the jack of all trades will in the end only be mediocre at everything.

... I think you missed the point. I was saying that RAW skill wires erode character roles. And there is the thing, it's actually largely the non-primary skills that help bring a character to life. It's a hacker writing there own apps, and riggers tinkering. Or that sam who fancies himself a demo-expert, or the the medic turned face. Those other skills are going to be much more fun for all the table, and chips erode /those/ skills. Soft maxed logic, cephelon 3 skill wires and neo-cordical nanites and you're rolling 15 dice to for being a mechanic. that's more than most riggers. It's also more software than most TM, etc etc etc.

Now in my game where this combo got field it lead to people hyper specializing even more because if you didn't twink hard there was no point in trying it at all. that's bad

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I was saying that RAW skill wires erode character roles.

If you define 'character roles' by 'no-one else is alloes to do that except me', sure. Just, that's the point of Skillwires - or Tutor Sprites, or Task Spirits.

And there is the thing, it's actually largely the non-primary skills that help bring a character to life.

And mostly, you want to be able to truely spend Edge on those - what you can't with Skillwires.

Soft maxed logic, cephelon 3 skill wires and neo-cordical nanites and you're rolling 15 dice to for being a mechanic.

It's also a lot more Essence and Nuyen cost than just Skillwires.

[Werewindlefr]

@Werewindlefr: software costs for corps are completely artificial, as someone else said earlier "Microsoft doesn't pay for each copy of office" and Ares as a whole isn't out 10k per rating per head in any real way either. I'm not really going anywhere with this just pointing out that you can have new RAW and your fluff without contradiction.

I suspect that most corps don't produce skillsoft, just as most corps have to pay for each copy (or each global license) of MS. Office.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

And of course, having volume licences around that don't need activation pretty much defeats any copy protection:
SR4 copy protection makes sure that your skillsofts will only run on you skillwires.

[Sir_Psycho]

The AAA's produce Everything. They have at least one finger in every pie.

[Kanada Ten]

Life is just that cheap in this setting. If you run around putting chips in peoples head you have to hold onto them for a couple years to get your money back. You might even have to think about health care and working conditions. Much easier to higher on of the hundreds of people who are over qualified for the job you want done. And training? phef that's soooo 20th century. Higher Contract someone with the skill you need already and give them a copy of "Daily Life at the Ares Plant" rating 4 knowsot because those only take trodes. No training, no ware, no investment.

You completely miss the point of megacorporations. They feed you, they clothe you, they house you, they sell you cyberware, they indebt you, they pay you corp script, you go to corp doctors, you pay corp taxes. They don't ever have to fire or hire anyone, because they can reprogram corp citizens for whatever job they need - that's the point of skillwires. People are born Ares, born Mitsuhama, born Shiawase. They don't contract jobs out, they don't hire the unwashed masses. They have a legion of wageslaves who can do any job they want or need, all thanks to the cyberware implanted in them, which they will never be able to pay off because you keep selling them the next great thing. And when they die, you recycle the ware. That's the point of a megacorporation, that's the point of skillwires.

[Neraph]

Not even close.

5 = 5.
4 + 1 = 5.
Same thing.

@ actual discussion now: Don't forget the fluff story about the guys who broke into a mining facility, and when they were caught, the on-site rigger-ish hacker switched all the 'wired workforce's manual labor skillsofts to CQC things.

IRL we have companies that make clonal desktops for their basic grunts: buy 1 copy of a program, have it run on all connected PCs. So why not 'wires?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Same thing.

No. Bonus Dice are not Skill Level.

Every time an effect or another skill is limited by Skill Level, this will be especially obvious.