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> Astral Projection and Physical Body Harm, While you were out wasnt' enough...
TKDNinjaInBlack
post Mar 17 2009, 08:26 PM
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So in another thread I had asked 6 questions and this is one of those questions that is still a bit unanswered.

If a mage astrally projects and his body is knocked unconscious, nothing happens to his astral form, right? This is based off of the books "While you were out" segment. It states that if the body dies while the mind is astrally projecting than the mind will continue to project for Magic x 2 hours. There is also proof of this in the back of corporate Enclaves in the mission framework detailing the mage who hires the runners to track down her killers.

But what about damage then? Does the astral form of the mage immediately take damage equivalent to their stun damage? Do they take damage modifiers equal to the physical modifiers?

What about that mage if their body is killed? Does that astral form have a condition monitor for that limited amount of time before they dissipate and vanish forever? Speaking of that, if astral attributes are based on mental attributes, a character very well could have a larger or smaller condition monitor when they are astrally projecting. Is there an astral condition monitor like there is a digital one while hacking? If that were the case, what happens if the mage who has taken damage on the astral and on the physical comes back to their body? Are the monitors then merged with the most damage remaining or are the monitors added up and the mage has a possible chance of dying if the damage exceeds his monitor?

I'm just looking for some answers as this seems not terribly clear by the book.
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wind_in_the_ston...
post Mar 18 2009, 05:03 AM
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I suspect there's a mistake in the book.

A person only has two condition monitors, physical and stun. It doesn't matter whether his astral body or his physical body takes the damage - it's marked. It doesn't make sense that you'd take wound penalties for physical damage while you're astral, but the book specifically states that astral damage can be either P or S. Damage done to one form, injures both, effectively.

So... can a body die while leaving the astral form intact? I'd say no. Not unless it can die without taking damage.

When the mage hired someone to track down her killers, did those killers actually terminate her body, or just lock it up so she couldn't get back to it?
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Draco18s
post Mar 18 2009, 05:13 AM
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QUOTE (wind_in_the_stones @ Mar 18 2009, 12:03 AM) *
So... can a body die while leaving the astral form intact? I'd say no. Not unless it can die without taking damage.

When the mage hired someone to track down her killers, did those killers actually terminate her body, or just lock it up so she couldn't get back to it?


Point 1: What's the point of allowing the astral form to stick around for Magic * 2 hours if they're dead and gone? Explicitly stated that the astral form sticks around, by RAW and by Fluff.

Point 2: She was dead. Dead as a doornail.
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Agent 333
post Mar 18 2009, 06:13 AM
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To further muddy the waters, in the description of Magecuffs in Arsenal, it mentions that they're designed to "knock the magician out and jerk her astral form back to her body". So, in that case, that implies knocking a mage out ends astral projection, but killing them just severs the tie to the body. Err....
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Dream79
post Mar 18 2009, 06:49 AM
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QUOTE (Agent 333 @ Mar 18 2009, 07:13 AM) *
To further muddy the waters, in the description of Magecuffs in Arsenal, it mentions that they're designed to "knock the magician out and jerk her astral form back to her body". So, in that case, that implies knocking a mage out ends astral projection, but killing them just severs the tie to the body. Err....

In this case could it actually be a matter of misconception of the limitations of astral travel? I know that's not likely the intention but it's interesting question.
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Dakka Dakka
post Mar 18 2009, 06:56 AM
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The intentional use of magecuffs is to ensure that the mage does not porject. I don't know if it should even be possible to cuff an already projecting mage.
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Dream79
post Mar 18 2009, 07:16 AM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Mar 18 2009, 07:56 AM) *
The intentional use of magecuffs is to ensure that the mage does not porject. I don't know if it should even be possible to cuff an already projecting mage.

Yes, but do they actually work? That is the question.
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Zormal
post Mar 18 2009, 07:40 AM
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QUOTE (Dream79 @ Mar 18 2009, 09:16 AM) *
Yes, but do they actually work? That is the question.

If you can't concentrate, you can't initiate astral projection. I always thought the idea of the cuffs is to knock the mage out before he can project.
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TonkaTuff
post Mar 18 2009, 07:42 AM
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Looking at the 'while you were out' text block, it doesn't seem to actually say that damage dealt to either form immediately manifests on the other as equivalent damage on the condition monitor, just that the two forms are 'affected' when either is hurt. And the example given is the body seizing and the astral form being aware that something happened to their body (not spontaneous sympathetic wounding), depending on which side the damage originated from. So it's entirely possible that they both have their own condition monitors.

However, neither the core book, Street Magic, nor the FAQ/errata suggest re-calculating these tracks (unlike the explicit instructions to do so with your icon), and it's not listed among your astral attributes. So the safe assumption would be that the body and astral form have separate, but equal condition monitors.

This also seems to be about the only way that the wandering spirit/empty shell situations could ever work (without recalculated tracks). If damage was instantly transferred 1:1, then an astral form with a full physical track would have a body with a full physical track - meaning no lingering coma, just death. And an astral form who's body had its physical track filled would be left to drift unconscious (due to also having a full physical track) until the timer ran out.

The vacated body can take stun damage, but can't be knocked unconscious, per se (it's already catatonic). But once the stun track is filled, the body starts taking physical damage from those same attacks - which could eventually lead to body-death and a wandering spirit. When the body dies, the astral form's own condition monitor would stay at whatever state it was in at the time, and continue from that point until the timer runs out and it fades away.

In this scenario, damage to the astral form would also be erased when/if it returned to it's body - but the magician would be subject to whatever physical damage their shell took in the interim. And *that* damage (or at least the mental track) would probably transfer to the astral form if the mage tried to project again before healing.


Of course you can put magecuffs on an already-projecting mage. In fact, it's alot easier, as they're unable to resist and all. But whether it forces them to come back from parts distant is another matter. As mentioned, that goes against fluff about how astral projection works (you have to fly back to your body, you can't just teleport there). And the cuffs are designed to shock the body when you trigger the glowmoss through casting or splitting off your astral form. But if the body is vacant, there's nothing to trigger that mechanism unless the astral form comes in range of the moss or someone casts a spell around the body. At that point, it sends out the first massive shock. The astral form will know about it, but might not take the damage (depending on how you treat that). But if the magical source stays in range, the cuffs will keep shocking until they either run out of juice, the magician hops back in (taking another jolt), or it kills the body with overflow damage. The captors also know the magician is going to have to return eventually, and that he'll then be as trapped as if he'd been in-residence all along. So they probably just wait it out.
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TKDNinjaInBlack
post Mar 18 2009, 01:42 PM
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The way magecuffs work is by never letting the mage project. It doesn't yank the form back to the body, as the form doesn't get a chance to leave the body before it projects. The wording is tricky there as in the first paragraph for magecuffs we're told that it is preventative and the next paragraph we're told it jerks the form back to the body. I guess if a really determined and powerful mage is able to withstand the first shock, they might get through, but that second shock would do them in.

Putting magecuffs on a projecting mage would be silly. You'd be trapping the astral form outside of the body. As soon as the form got close, it'd shock the shit out of the body and knock it unconscious before the mage got back.

But do you guys see where I am coming from here? There isn't a lot of detail to explain just a few simple things that need answering. Developer help would be appreciated...
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DireRadiant
post Mar 18 2009, 04:13 PM
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Some questions are better left unanswered. If you get an answer, you are setting limits. Limits which you might find restrictive or not to your liking. And even with limits established by the "Rules" you are going to break or go beyond, through, over, and past them occasionally because otherwise there are no mysteries and drama.

Keep the same damage tracks for the astral and physical bodies, and proceed in answering your questions on that basis.

As for astral ghosts, astral forms snapping together or not, and other unusual circumstances, think of them as items like Immortal Elves, Dragons, spirits, and all other things which we can't really explain why they exist in SR.

One thing I would find amusing is having a PC experiment to find out how it works.... "So, you're going to go astral and then kill your body to see what happens?"
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Draco18s
post Mar 18 2009, 04:49 PM
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TKDNinjaInBlack
post Mar 18 2009, 06:16 PM
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That's never been good enough for me. I want to know how the developers handle those situations...
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Dakka Dakka
post Mar 18 2009, 06:19 PM
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Also I like PCs and NPCs to be on equal footing rulewise. I don't like NPCs that are simply created by GM Fiat instead of using the same mechanisms as the PCs.
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wind_in_the_ston...
post Mar 21 2009, 04:50 AM
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QUOTE (TonkaTuff @ Mar 18 2009, 02:42 AM) *
Looking at the 'while you were out' text block, it doesn't seem to actually say that damage dealt to either form immediately manifests on the other as equivalent damage on the condition monitor, just that the two forms are 'affected' when either is hurt. And the example given is the body seizing and the astral form being aware that something happened to their body (not spontaneous sympathetic wounding), depending on which side the damage originated from. So it's entirely possible that they both have their own condition monitors.

Yes, but it also doesn't say the two forms have different condition monitors. The wound is on the other body, but you feel it, just the same. Separate monitors is a pretty big rules condition not to be mentioned anywhere.

QUOTE (TonkaTuff @ Mar 18 2009, 02:42 AM) *
However, neither the core book, Street Magic, nor the FAQ/errata suggest re-calculating these tracks (unlike the explicit instructions to do so with your icon), and it's not listed among your astral attributes. So the safe assumption would be that the body and astral form have separate, but equal condition monitors.

If you recalculated, you'd have only a stun monitor, because there is no physical body. But the rules explicitly state that you can receive either stun or physical damage.

QUOTE (TonkaTuff @ Mar 18 2009, 02:42 AM) *
This also seems to be about the only way that the wandering spirit/empty shell situations could ever work (without recalculated tracks). If damage was instantly transferred 1:1, then an astral form with a full physical track would have a body with a full physical track - meaning no lingering coma, just death. And an astral form who's body had its physical track filled would be left to drift unconscious (due to also having a full physical track) until the timer ran out.

The vacated body can take stun damage, but can't be knocked unconscious, per se (it's already catatonic). But once the stun track is filled, the body starts taking physical damage from those same attacks - which could eventually lead to body-death and a wandering spirit. When the body dies, the astral form's own condition monitor would stay at whatever state it was in at the time, and continue from that point until the timer runs out and it fades away.

In this scenario, damage to the astral form would also be erased when/if it returned to it's body - but the magician would be subject to whatever physical damage their shell took in the interim. And *that* damage (or at least the mental track) would probably transfer to the astral form if the mage tried to project again before healing.

This is all assuming the rules you suggest, which I find farfetched. I think it's fantasy and urban myth. It makes for good story telling, but I don't believe it's supported by the rules, and it's too fantastic to have a place in my game world.
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Toshiaki
post Apr 1 2009, 05:44 AM
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I think that under 3rd edition it was specified that filling up the stun or physical track (but not killing) a mage would snap it back to the body, however that text is omitted from 4th. It's a case of older players and devs taking previous edition knowledge as an assumption. I don't believe that they've ever solved the case of hanging around in the astral when you're dead, though it's referenced multiple places. I've run it as the tie is broken the moment the body dies, any prior damage still exists for the astral body to deal with. Someone who was perfectly healthy then subjected to the chunky salsa effect would have a clear condition track to exact revenge with, while someone who was slowly beat to death would helpless (as they were knocked unconscious and into overflow before having the tie severed).
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