Best loadouts for street sams, Different augs for different styles Options

[The Jake]

Metagenetic Improvement,
Gentic Optimization,
Exceptional Attribute.
Now you are at 10 Agility on the Elf.
Then get the Cyber-Arms with Agility 10 and enhancement 3 for 13 Agility? O.o
Or Muscle-Stuff/Suprathoid Gland for example.

What does the Synthacardium state?
Usually, everything that does not, directly, add to skill is not limited by anything.

Actually, the math is wrong. Those three would bring the base agility to 11. O.o. Augmented maximum of 16 (rounds up?). Craaaazy.

EDIT: But I see what you mean - get racial unaugmented maximum above 8 through any of the above. Increase limbs to 9. Add rating 3 agility enhancenment. Voila - agility 12 limbs. It's worth noting that you can get agility 11 optimised cyberlimbs without Restricted Gear (avail 12). My only downside is I'd like to see that agility matching the rest of the body - so I'm leaning towards using Muscle Toner 4 with Restricted Gear.

I could do that, but then I'd lose on my martial arts (I'm picturing a more Grammaton Cleric from Equilibrium than John Woo 'Akimbo' style gunslinger).

The thing that compounds with the qualities further is also the necessity of Restricted Gear for stuff like Muscle Toner 4 (unless you have a lenient GM on starting gear).

I should post my build when I get more time...

Synthacardium is a positive dice pool modifier to the Athletics roll. I didn't think there was a limit on modifiers, only bonuses to the skill rating? Or do I have that wrong.

- J.

[Stahlseele]

ah, yes, elves get +2 to agility and +1 to charisma right?
i think i got that mixed up somewhere.
Yes, Elves are twitch-gamers. Main-Problem i have with them is, that many usefull-skills use agility as linked attribute, and with that set-up, he would DEFAULT to 8 dice i think . .

But yes, do post that built in here.
We'll be happy to *ahem* offer helpfull critic ^^

[The Jake]

Ahh jesus I'm off. Elves have agility 7, Charisma 8 max naturally. I don't even know how I missed that. Urggh...

Anyway.... conceptually I'm aiming for something like a Grammaton Cleric. I'm adept/cyber agnostic but my math works out more favorable using cyber. This may change with the recent SR4A
rules where they reduced the cost of adept powers but since I don't have it and won't be using them, its a non-issue.

I'm picturing a character with absurdly high dodge ability, awesome shooting with twin Steyr TMPs (with gas vent 3 and melee hardening at a minimum) and if all else fails, clubbing them with the pistols. I'd like to give Close Quarters Combat group and some points with the Stealth group but even defaulting on an absurdly high Agility, I could care less for the moment. I've had to cut skills to the bare essentials to get the spread I'm after (maybe too much).

Very loosely:
20 dice to Automatics rolls, excluding smartlinks and vision enhancement mods.
17 dice to Gymnastics Dodge rolls.
23 dice to Full Dodge rolls.
23 dice to Full Parry.

I'd like to give full tricked out cybereyes and ears and attention co-processors but I'm tight for cash atm - plus its trivial to setup so I haven't worried about it.

Off the top of my head, total cost so far is 397 BP - not enough for contacts, guns or armor. Clearly it needs a bit of tweaking but I think that's enough to get an idea of what I'm trying to achieve.

I'm open to any/all criticism here.
------------------------------------------

Race: Elf (30BP)

Attributes: (200BP)
Body: 4 (6)
Agility: 7(11)[11]
Reaction: 4(9)
Strength: 3[9]
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 4
Logic: 1
Willpower: 4
Edge: 1 (meh can raise it later)
Essence: 0.21
Initiative: 11(13)
IP: 1(3)

Positive Qualities:
Ambidexterity
Restricted Gear (Muscle Toner 4)
Biocompatibility (Cyberware)
Martial Arts: 15 (Krav Maga - Ready Weapon As a Free Action, Take Aim As A Free Action, -1 to shooting into melee) --> I'd like more but this is all that fits.
Maneouvers: Iajitsu, Multi-Strike, Two Weapon Style, Vicious Blow, Set-Up, Finishing Move

Negative Qualities
Addiction (Novacoke, Moderate): 10
Augmentation Addict: 10
Combat Monster: 10
Incompetent (Hacking): 5
(No real reason for these. I just like the above flaws. In all honesty I'll probably change to In Debt to get more cash. Funnily, this will be more appropriate to the background story I have in mind anyway)

Cyberware/Bioware: Essence Cost: 5.79 (This will cost 41BP alone).
Two cyberarms (optimised - Agility 8, Strength 6, Rating 3 Agility and Strength enhancement, Cyberarm Slide, Cyberarm Gyromount)
Reaction Enhancers (2)
Wired Reflexes (2)
Muscle Toner (4)
Synthacardium (3)
Reflex Recorder (Automatics)
Genetic Optimisation (Agility)

Skills: (126BP)
Automatics: 6 (Machine Pistols +2)
Athletics Skill Group: 4
Unarmed Combat: 4 (Krav Maga +2)
Clubs: 4 (Parrying +2)
Perception: 3
Dodge: 4 (Ranged Combat +2)

cheers

- J.

[Wasabi]

The Jake, remember that if you are a SURGE character you can get Biocompatability as a positive Surge ability along with Metagenetic Optimization. The SURGE-based Metagenetic Optimization not only raises the max attribute by yet another point, it also gives you the free point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

If you want top go all out with twinkage, look for the thread with the quadruple wielded SMG'S *snickers*

[The Jake]

The Jake, remember that if you are a SURGE character you can get Biocompatability as a positive Surge ability along with Metagenetic Optimization. The SURGE-based Metagenetic Optimization not only raises the max attribute by yet another point, it also gives you the free point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

True but I'd still have to give up Restricted Gear and 5 BP of Martial Arts... the loss of Muscle Toner 4 hurts the build too much.

There was a whole raft of other stuff I'd LIKE to buy or have fitted in somehow:
Neo-EPO, Reakt, Pushed, Sideways, etc.

Anyways the above is more of an experiment to see how I could combine a very high agility + twin cyberarms to make a functional street samurai in the vein of Equilibrium. It's actually quite hard to get it to a point I'm happy with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

- J.

[Stahlseele]

That's the built in balancing for you *shrugs*

[The Jake]

Any other feedback on my build? Anything I haven't factored in to optimise it further?

- J.

[Stahlseele]

Nothing i can see right off the bat.

[InfinityzeN]

Your modified Agility is to high. Augmented max is 10. You need to go surged or somehow get the points for Genetic Opti or Exceptional Agility.

I would strongly suggest using Surged at the very least to get your Biocompatibility (cost 5BP, use the extra 5 BP you save for another level of Martial Arts).

*Edit*
My bad, I just noticed that you do have Genetic Optimization: Agility. The Surged suggestion still stands though.

[Stahlseele]

Ah, right, as of SR4, Attributes are rounded down . .

[ElFenrir]

He looks like a pretty top-notch Grammaton Cleric to me. Something between him and this one cyborg-badass priest guy from a manga I read now and then(with the heavy cybernetics and all.) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[The Jake]

Your modified Agility is to high. Augmented max is 10. You need to go surged or somehow get the points for Genetic Opti or Exceptional Agility.

I would strongly suggest using Surged at the very least to get your Biocompatibility (cost 5BP, use the extra 5 BP you save for another level of Martial Arts).

*Edit*
My bad, I just noticed that you do have Genetic Optimization: Agility. The Surged suggestion still stands though.

Will do. It's worth it in hindsight. I may post the gun I plan on him using soon too...

- J.

[The Jake]

Here is the pistol of choice for all aspiring Grammaton Clerics:

FN 5-7C 600
- barrel mount: gas vent 3 400
- underbarrel mount: laser sight 100
- extended clip (25%) 500
- level 2 custom look 1000
- internal smartgun system 600
- Firing selection change (FA) 300
- melee hardening 300
- personalised grip 100
- gecko grip 100

Total cost: 4k

The custom look was originally intended for staredowns (+2 mod per weapon when drawn (+4 total) + elven charisma would be impressive I thought, but I ran out of points). Ideally I'd make it undetectable to MADs but I can't do that without using additional restrictive gear. Recoil compensation on this weapon alone is 5 before factoring in gyromounts and strength.

I'm not entirely sure on the legality of having two grip mods - I'm thinking most GMs wouldn't have an issue with the above.

- J.

[InfinityzeN]

Nice. The 5-7C is my fav machine pistol and I have lots of build outs on it. I take it you mean topmount instead of underbarrel mount for the laser sight, it being an MP and all (no underbarrel slot). I like how you went with lots of 1 point modifications, something I do also since it seems most of the 2 and 3 point mods are not worth it.

[crazyconscript]

Hmm, havent checked this thread in a while but this looks interesting!
Couple of points i noticed in the build:
-You have cyberarms with AGI 11, why do you need the muscle toner? It doesnt work with cyberlimbs
-Unless they changed it in SR4A or an errata i'm unaware of, reaction enhancers dont stack with wired reflexes
-Do you really need all of those maneuvers? Thats 12BP invested there, and i think it could probably be used better elsewhere for a truly maxed build (like, say, surged metagenic improvment...)
-To raise reaction, make him addicted to snuff, effectively raising reaction by 1 since he never stops (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)
-Why do you have both the athletics and dodge skills so high? And also that synthacardium? If you are going for gymnastics dodges then i can see it, but then why get the dodge skill?
-I wonder if Clubs (Pistol whip) could be seen as a legit spec for MP's....i currently know someone who uses it with 2 Super Warhawks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Good point on the Muscle Toner and the Arms, but RE and Wired do stack again, as far as i know.
Granted, that's about as far as i could throw you i am afraid . . .

[paws2sky]

- I wonder if Clubs (Pistol whip) could be seen as a legit spec for MP's....i currently know someone who uses it with 2 Super Warhawks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I allowed something similar for my Denver team's Gunslinger Adept.

-paws

[The Jake]

Hmm, havent checked this thread in a while but this looks interesting!
Couple of points i noticed in the build:
-You have cyberarms with AGI 11, why do you need the muscle toner? It doesnt work with cyberlimbs

The rest of the body is propped up to AGI 11 with the Muscle Toner and listed in (). Cyberarms are calculated seperately and listed in [].
In any case, nothing under muscle toner or cyberarms doesn't state they aren't compatible. If you want to split hairs, there's nothing to stay that they don't stack... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

-Unless they changed it in SR4A or an errata i'm unaware of, reaction enhancers dont stack with wired reflexes

My BBB explicitly states Reaction Enhancers do stack with other forms initiative enhancement. AFAIK, contrary to popular belief - this includes synaptic boosters if you want to get picky (nothing under either item states they are not compatible with the other). Unless someone can provide a direct quote to contradict that....

-Do you really need all of those maneuvers? Thats 12BP invested there, and i think it could probably be used better elsewhere for a truly maxed build (like, say, surged metagenic improvment...)

That was my mistake - I misread the rules in Arsenal. For some reason I assumed you get 2 martial arts maneouvers with 5BP - rather that 2 maneouvers is a limit you can purchase, not how many you begin with. I'll scrap those. Thanks for the pickup

-To raise reaction, make him addicted to snuff, effectively raising reaction by 1 since he never stops (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

At reaction 9 he's hit the augmented maximum. To the best of my knowledge, you cannot exceed that, even with drugs.

-Why do you have both the athletics and dodge skills so high? And also that synthacardium? If you are going for gymnastics dodges then i can see it, but then why get the dodge skill?

While its not stated in the rules, one GM would easily infer that you can't use Gymnastics Dodge every time (e.g. if there's a space limitation). I haven't checked, but I suspect my GM would agree. So I pick all 3. Is that just me? Or am I better off trying to stick with one form of Dodge only?

-I wonder if Clubs (Pistol whip) could be seen as a legit spec for MP's....i currently know someone who uses it with 2 Super Warhawks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I could probably swing it with my GM. I just used Parry because it increased overall defensive ability and was RAW legal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Again, nice pickup though.

- J.

[ElFenrir]

Thinking about it, a good, basic Sam loadout, using SR4/Augmentation, could look like this(this is RAW legal, with Availability considered:)

Eye mods: Thermographic, Smartlink, Flare compensation(.3 ess)
Ceramic Bone Lacing(1.2 ess)
Synthacardium Lv. 2 or 3(.2-.3)
Wired Reflexes Lv. 1 or 2(2-3)
Muscle Augmentation Lv. 2(.4)
Muscle Toner Lv. 2(.4)

Total: 4-5.15 essence(Normal.) Alphaware will lower these, of course-nuyen wise, normal, this loadout will run around 86250-117250 I believe. More for some Alphaware. If you want room to improve, either hit Wired 1 or suck up the extra 32k and get Wired 2 Alphaware.

This here could take care of a lot of things.

Eye mods aren't too many, but you can always load a pair of lv. 3 contacts up with some stuff, or glasses. The Smartlink is the thing that adds a big Availability boost to the items, so with that in the eye itself(and a sam should have something that he can't lose normally), it will help.

Bone Lacing adds a sweet +2 damage resistance, and better Unarmed damage if they go that route. Ceramic also is undetectable by MAD scanners.

Synthacardium helps all Athletics, including Gymnastics Dodge.

Reflexes give the all-important extra passes. Expensive, but sooo useful. The more, the better.

Muscle Toner/Augmentation helps raw stats a bit.

For an extra 10k and a bit of essence, one could throw a Reflex Recorder in here.

I was considering making lists for different kinds of sams and popping them up somewhere for the hell of it if I get bored. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[The Jake]

This is the thread for it.

Is it worth bringing up cyber-adept builds here as well?

Originally, my Grammaton Cleric idea was an adept but the more I looked at it, I got more mileage going the cyber route. Yes I don't get improved ability, but attribute limits are laughable when you throw in Metagenic Improvement, Improved Attribute and Genetic Optimisation. Adepts have been significantly nerfed in SR4 with the cap on ability increases to 1.5x the skill rating.

I really don't see what adepts offer when compared to a cybernetic equivalent except for very, very specific builds. By design, you have to overspecialise and in doing so, lose survivability.

- J.

[ElFenrir]

Bio-adepts are really awesome in this.

I'd stick to bio only, though, unless it's just eyemods or other little tiny things you are looking at(though-occasionally it can be worth it, since Essence is halved of the lower thing. Ive found it to be the case sometimes). A good bio-adept loadout(again, a basic samlike build):

Synaptic Booster Lv. 1(.5)
Muscle Aug Lv. 2(.4)
Muscle Toner Lv. 2(.4)
Synthacardium Lv. 3(.3)
Aluminum Bone Lacing, Alphaware(.8 essence halved to .4)

Total Essence: 2. 4 essence left, which is 4 Magic afterward. Since you have your Reflexes and stats, it's all gravy to what you purchase with that 4.

However, in 4A, the adept powers are lowered-1.5 gets you 1 level of Reflexes. If you use the optional Geas rule in Street Magic(the old rule-the one where your power gets 25% off it's cost, like in SR3)-that 1.5 can be lowered again to around 1.25(after the rounding nonsense, since 25% of it is an odd number, and adept powers go in .25 of a point. The exact cost would be 1.125, which a reaaally cool GM might let you round to 1.) It's a little better now.

If you don't mind splashing the money and would rather stay MAD friendly, ditch the Aluminum and a couple levels of the Synthacardium and get Bone Density 2 or something. It could work as well.

I have one pure adept that is actually very, very good in his field(close combat), but he does lack the variety of my sam. In a knockdown dragout fight, they would be about even. But the sam can do a whole lot more on the side. The Adept, though, has a few little tricks up his sleeve that my sam doesn't have. Adepts are really good, but yeah, I find a bit more specialized in general.

[crazyconscript]

@ The Jake

The rest of the body is propped up to AGI 11 with the Muscle Toner and listed in (). Cyberarms are calculated seperately and listed in [].
In any case, nothing under muscle toner or cyberarms doesn't state they aren't compatible. If you want to split hairs, there's nothing to stay that they don't stack... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Actually, the BBB p.335 does state they are incompatible:

Cyberlimb Enhancements: All cyberlimbs come with Body, Strength, and Agility attributes of 3. These values can only be augmented by cyberlimb enhancements—enhancements from other cyber- or bioware systems have no effect

Emphasis added by me, but they dont stack. The point i was trying to make was that for a sam like this, your primary use of agility will be to hit things, and for this you will be using your arms. Ergo having the rest of your body with 11 agility doesnt seem like it is going to help much.

My BBB explicitly states Reaction Enhancers do stack with other forms initiative enhancement. AFAIK, contrary to popular belief - this includes synaptic boosters if you want to get picky (nothing under either item states they are not compatible with the other). Unless someone can provide a direct quote to contradict that.

Well here is what i am operating off of, actually on the same page (335):

Wired reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of
Initiative enhancement

You can argue that reaction enhancers are not an initiative enhancement since they dont grant IP's, but since they raise reaction which is used to calculate initiative i classify them as initiative enhancement.

While its not stated in the rules, one GM would easily infer that you can't use Gymnastics Dodge every time (e.g. if there's a space limitation). I haven't checked, but I suspect my GM would agree. So I pick all 3. Is that just me? Or am I better off trying to stick with one form of Dodge only?

You can quite legitimately have all three, its just that i see the synthacardium as a way of boosting the gymnastics dodge as much as possible. Since i am looking at this as a contender for "best street sam" i would rely more on the dodge defense here since you know that is applicable everywhere, and when not dodging in combat you already have high enough attributes to be good at athletics even if you have it at low levels. If you lowered the athletics group to 2-3 which is still a good level for this guy and lost the synthacardium it frees up extra resources for other goodies.

Also noticed something else there with the cyberlimbs: you cant actually fit in all of those enhancements with the limbs capacity.
Cyberlimb Gyromoung: 4
Cyberarm Slide: 8
Strength mod: 3
Agility mod: 3
Total=18
Full cyberarms only have a capacity of 15 i'm afraid

Currently working on my own version of this street-sam special edition, using the move-by-wire system. Will post it when i'm done, see how it works out. So far i have managed to get Reaction 12 and agility 11, with mostly the same skills

Like the gun by the way

[Stahlseele]

Bulk-Modofication?

[crazyconscript]

Wouldnt work i'm afraid. Optimising cyberlimbs raises availability, as does the bulk modification. And with the amount of optimisation he has it is already at availability 12. You could use the bulk mod to fit more stuff in but then you would need to take restricted gear or get less of an attribute boost in the limb