List of spells affected by the 4A OR table. Options

[Zurai]

Bending light? Oh, right, you're thinking of the manipulation version of Trid Phantasm.

No, actually, he's thinking of the Physical Illusion version of Trid Phantasm:

Physical Illusions: Physical illusion spells create actual images or alter physical properties, such as light or sound.

Emphasis mine.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

There's a lot of handwaving going on with the rules for illusions. But now is not the time to discuss it, so I'll leave it. Besides, been there before.

[Dakka Dakka]

This immunity applies to all weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers).

Where do the taser or the SnS ammo fit in there? The same goes for the flamethrower (the weapon not the spell) or a firehose.

[knasser]

Spirits explicitly don't have nervous systems (SM in the section on what spirits are made of). Tasers and SnS work on overwhelming the nervous system with electricity as we all know. If a GM isn't willing to state that these weapons do not stun spirits, then why should a GM be willing to state that Fire Elementals are not immune to fire, that water spirits can be drowned and that you could inject an Air Spirit with a sedative and have it sleeping like a baby? None of these things are ruled out by the RAW, but I think most GMs would not allow them. And if you don't, then you've already established your willingness to set fluff above RAW so whether or not you rule out SnS from affecting them also is just a matter of preference. I allow electricity damage but not the taser like effect of SnS.

[Dakka Dakka]

In my opinion all these other methods should work by RAW as well in my games. You could maybe argue about the incapacitating effect of the SnS rounds, but i don't see why the AP of SnS should not work.

Even if you rule out the SnS, the mundanes would just have to throw more ¥ at the spirit problem. Buy a heavy drone with the "spirit zapper" i.e. SK Light Gauss Cannon. DV14+ and AP -half -8 should stop most spirits with one shot. Since drones don't even suffer recoil, you could even mod it to FA. Outch

[knasser]

In my opinion all these other methods should work by RAW as well in my games. You could maybe argue about the incapacitating effect of the SnS rounds, but i don't see why the AP of SnS should not work.

What? The water spirit can be drowned? Well, different tastes, then. Shadowrun does an excellent job of keeping rules and fluff consistent but where they do conflict, I'm happy to make a ruling on the RAW to get what makes sense to us.

Even if you rule out the SnS, the mundanes would just have to throw more ¥ at the spirit problem. Buy a heavy drone with the "spirit zapper" i.e. SK Light Gauss Cannon. DV14+ and AP -half -8 should stop most spirits with one shot. Since drones don't even suffer recoil, you could even mod it to FA. Outch

That's how I want it to work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

What? The water spirit can be drowned? Well, different tastes, then. Shadowrun does an excellent job of keeping rules and fluff consistent but where they do conflict, I'm happy to make a ruling on the RAW to get what makes sense to us.

Not having an Immunity against their own "element" might be one of the reasons why spirits dislike to materialise. Also unless the spirit has the Realistic Form Power it can easily be distinguished from any mundane object, so the Fire Elemental is not made of real flames, its Powers however do to physical objects the equivalent of mundane fire through magic. All bets are off on their homeplanes.

I don't think fluff and crunch contradict each other in this case. While I'd like it just as well to use those immunities it's not in the RAW, so I don't htink it is gamebreaking to affect a Fire Spirit with a flamethrower (in this case I'm talking about the waepon as well as the spell)

On the other hand, would you rule that plant spirits have total immunity against sticks? Or the Earth spirit against falling rocks?

[knasser]

On the other hand, would you rule that plant spirits have total immunity against sticks? Or the Earth spirit against falling rocks?

Of course not. That's very different to a fire elemental burning itself or a creature without a nervous system being affected by attacks that target the nervous system such as tasers. You're looking for rules to extrapolate when what I said is that I will make exceptions to them as needed. If I describe an Earth spirit like a golem of clay with no mouth or nose, then I'm free to not allow it to be suffocated by someone putting a bag over its head without then ruling it can't be damaged by someone dropping a boulder on its head. Sillyness!

[pbangarth]

In 4A at least, the immunity to normal weapons description drops elemental damage as a way past it. Still you can carry a taser which does 8s and 1/2s armor and that will drop most spirits, except absurdly high force ones.

...
*The silence is punctuated by an added tally mark next to "Stay with SR4" and not "Upgrade to SR4A"*

Spirits explicitly don't have nervous systems (SM in the section on what spirits are made of). Tasers and SnS work on overwhelming the nervous system with electricity as we all know. If a GM isn't willing to state that these weapons do not stun spirits, then why should a GM be willing to state that Fire Elementals are not immune to fire, that water spirits can be drowned and that you could inject an Air Spirit with a sedative and have it sleeping like a baby? None of these things are ruled out by the RAW, but I think most GMs would not allow them. And if you don't, then you've already established your willingness to set fluff above RAW so whether or not you rule out SnS from affecting them also is just a matter of preference. I allow electricity damage but not the taser like effect of SnS.

In my opinion all these other methods should work by RAW as well in my games. You could maybe argue about the incapacitating effect of the SnS rounds, but i don't see why the AP of SnS should not work.

Even if you rule out the SnS, the mundanes would just have to throw more ¥ at the spirit problem. Buy a heavy drone with the "spirit zapper" i.e. SK Light Gauss Cannon. DV14+ and AP -half -8 should stop most spirits with one shot. Since drones don't even suffer recoil, you could even mod it to FA. Outch

All of these posts discuss opinions and interpretations of SR4. But since the wording of SR4A is exactly the same as the wording for SR4, how are we arriving at the conclusion that SR4A has dropped something?