List of spells affected by the 4A OR table. Options

[The Mack]

Hermit. You are adamant that magicians were overpowered and could fill other people's roles. I disagree. Would you be up for a friendly challenge to back your statements up? I'll start a thread and post a non-minmaxed Samurai build, and you post a magician in response that can do the same things he can, fulfilling the same role. 400BP standard build.

I'm afraid it is the only way you will convince a number of us that a magician can duplicate a non-magician's role.

K.

A gentleman's challenge.

Nice idea.

[eidolon]

Seriously? A sam? IME, that's probably the easiest and most common thing for a mage to replace (or at least, irritate the player that's running a sam by taking over his job every time there are bad guys around) on a team.

Sam's role: killstick
Mage with a few spells for damage and speed: killstick

Wait, what was I thinking? This is the internet. Back to your armchair theory arguments. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[The Mack]

Seriously? A sam? IME, that's probably the easiest and most common thing for a mage to replace (or at least, irritate the player that's running a sam by taking over his job every time there are bad guys around) on a team.

Sam's role: killstick
Mage with a few spells for damage and speed: killstick

Wait, what was I thinking? This is the internet. Back to your armchair theory arguments. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Honestly, with the constant generalizing, exaggeration and well (pardon the term) bullshit about mages being "powerhouses" and "replacing entire teams" I'm willing to give hermit 450 BP so he can show us this one man shadowrun team.

It doesn't even need to be compared to any other archetype build for build, because apparently 'mages are godmode' and don't actually need anyone else.

It's a surprise we don't see this build being slagged more often on the forums.



Regardless, all he has to do is build it, and prove his grandstanding with actual numbers.

I like knasser's challenge better, but at this point anything to back up his statements would be fine.

[hermit]

Hermit. You are adamant that magicians were overpowered and could fill other people's roles. I disagree. Would you be up for a friendly challenge to back your statements up? I'll start a thread and post a non-minmaxed Samurai build, and you post a magician in response that can do the same things he can, fulfilling the same role. 400BP standard build.

I'm afraid it is the only way you will convince a number of us that a magician can duplicate a non-magician's role.

Later today, when I have time, okay?

Very early, rough proposal: Possession tradition, possibly an Ougun Voodoo, Spells Stunball and -bolt.

I'm willing to give hermit 450 BP so he can show us this one man shadowrun team.

I'll see what I can come up with.

All builds should be considered under SR4 rules, not SR4A, regarding effectiveness. The point I was trying tto make is that the changes make such charatcers much less viable, so under the new rules, a viable one man shadowrunner team should not be possible.

[knasser]

Later today, when I have time, okay?

Very early, rough proposal: Possession tradition, possibly an Ougun Voodoo, Spells Stunball and -bolt.

Heh. Sure. The first time I tried to produce a samurai drop-in, I went with a possession tradition.

I'll build my character and I'll start the thread in a bit. I think at the very least it will show you that magicians aren't overpowered or make other character types redundant.

K.

[eidolon]

Actually, I dropped in a little comment, sure, but I want to expand that a bit.

How many people involved in these "OMG my mage is useless now" threads have actually played a game/session with a character using these rules?

Because I'm serious when I call all of this stuff armchair theorizing. I can't tell you how many times I've left these boards thinking "OMG that stuff they were talking about is crazy broken" etc. only to find out during a game that what was such a big deal on DS...barely mattered at all during gameplay. (Mostly back in the SR3 days; by now I've learned enough to just ignore the gaming internet arguments except to wonder at them.)

And so it is with most of the "biggie" rules discussions on the boards. Remember long shots, and how "broken" they are? Sure, broken in a vacuum where there's no GM and players are rules-bending asshats. So on and so forth.

[Malicant]

How many people involved in these "OMG my mage is useless now" threads have actually played a game/session with a character using these rules?

Just because threshold increased by one or two does not mean the mages in my groups will suddenly start rolling better. They fail with OR 3 and OR 4 often enough. With OR 4 and OR 6 they will fail more often, which will not increase their fun, nor will the group will become suddenly happy because he cannot support them like he used to anymore. It just means that more time will be clogged with the matrix to forge or disable camera feeds, for example. I really can see how that will improve my game.

Balance restored! Fun disabled! Gloaters and Grievers still have fun, obviously, but that is not a good thing.

[The Mack]

Actually, I dropped in a little comment, sure, but I want to expand that a bit.

How many people involved in these "OMG my mage is useless now" threads have actually played a game/session with a character using these rules?

Admittedly, none.

But I don't have to.

Because I've played against OR 4, and it's not trivial by any means. Nor is it a guaranteed success.

So I can effectively know that OR 6 will only be worse.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I'm not going to totally disagree with hermit on the power of mages, especially when you add in the really poorly designed spirits in street magic.(Task and guardian spring to mind) Also possession tradition is really abusable. A mage can be built in order to be broken, though must people can build broken characters that aren't mages. Thing is in play I have rarely seen broken magicians. My main problem is the things they decided to nerf are the things that did not make mages overpowered, its the things you kind of want your mage doing like helping the team sneak past security. Or the nerf doesn't actually stop the broken part, I'm looking at the drain fix for combat spells. I really like the flavor of it and I think direct combat spells could use a nerf, but this fix motivates the behavior that made them broken.

[suppenhuhn]

I'm not going to totally disagree with hermit on the power of mages, especially when you add in the really poorly designed spirits in street magic.(Task and guardian spring to mind) Also possession tradition is really abusable. A mage can be built in order to be broken, though must people can build broken characters that aren't mages. Thing is in play I have rarely seen broken magicians. My main problem is the things they decided to nerf are the things that did not make mages overpowered, its the things you kind of want your mage doing like helping the team sneak past security. Or the nerf doesn't actually stop the broken part, I'm looking at the drain fix for combat spells. I really like the flavor of it and I think direct combat spells could use a nerf, but this fix motivates the behavior that made them broken.

That's exactly my point.
Nowhere is the crunch of possession spirits incorporating the fluff that all possession traditions share, ie ghosts are to be used very carefully.
In fact with stuff like channeling it directly opposes the fluff and promotes running around possessed 24/7.

With upping the OR of a spell that when being used should have a high success rate because else you opt for plan b all that has been accomplished is mages
needing to minmax their char if they intend to use such spells.
That by doing this they achieve general powerlevels that can really be game breaking has of course not been considered.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

I can see why they wanted to make it more difficult for direct combat spells to affect non-living targets, from a flavor standpoint. Magic is essentially mana, and will be very effective against living targets. You're pumping energy into a body. All you need to do is pop a bunch of cells in some organs, and the guy goes down. Damaging metal and plastic enough to cause systems to shut down, is a different story. It should be tough.

You walk into the lobby with a mask spell. The guard, with a WPR of 4, will probably roll one success and not be able see through the mask. But a physical spell will not affect a camera without being cast at a very high level, and with critical success on the test. But look how the spell works. You trying to affect the "brain" of the camera. How good are you at understanding the function of circuitry, to be able to direct your mana to affect it?

[Shinobi Killfist]

I can see why they wanted to make it more difficult for direct combat spells to affect non-living targets, from a flavor standpoint. Magic is essentially mana, and will be very effective against living targets. You're pumping energy into a body. All you need to do is pop a bunch of cells in some organs, and the guy goes down. Damaging metal and plastic enough to cause systems to shut down, is a different story. It should be tough.

You walk into the lobby with a mask spell. The guard, with a WPR of 4, will probably roll one success and not be able see through the mask. But a physical spell will not affect a camera without being cast at a very high level, and with critical success on the test. But look how the spell works. You trying to affect the "brain" of the camera. How good are you at understanding the function of circuitry, to be able to direct your mana to affect it?

If you were directing the spell at the camera I might agree with you. But you are instead bending light around you so you actually just look different. The guard seeing that the illusion is a fake due to a good roll makes sense, the camera not even seeing the illusion does not make sense.

[suppenhuhn]

You trying to affect the "brain" of the camera. How good are you at understanding the function of circuitry, to be able to direct your mana to affect it?

No, actually I don't.
If you were correct I could only turn invisible for objects i can perceive but apparently it does work against hidden cameras and ones i move to after casting as well.

[JonathanC]

I've been away from the forums for a while, but when I heard about the Anniversary edition I was really stoked. I popped back in and saw all of the hubub about the magic changes...now, I'd have to see them in action to be sure, but to be honest...I'm not really that miffed.

WHY?

Because there is finally a decent reason to make sure that you have riggers and hackers around. Every game I've run, the only people who play mundanes are typically people who are new to the game. Because magic works on everything, and in my experience, object resistance was kind of a joke. It never seemed to make drones any harder to affect in real play. I understand the affect on illusions, and I can see the issue here, but doesn't that just mean that you'd have to hack the cameras. Magical illusions would still be useful against people, and still have the possibility of affecting machines, but technology actually becomes a serious challenge for magic users, so that all-magic or magic heavy groups become less useful in some ways. This isn't really a bad thing, since all-tech groups are completely useless against anything magical.


Not saying that this won't turn out terribly, as I haven't played with the new ruleset. I'm just saying that I appreciate that there has finally been some effort made to reign in magic.

[The Mack]

Because there is finally a decent reason to make sure that you have riggers and hackers around.

Um...there are tons of reasons to make sure you have riggers and hackers around.

Every game I've run, the only people who play mundanes are typically people who are new to the game. Because magic works on everything,

I think you're working under some serious misconceptions here.

and in my experience, object resistance was kind of a joke.

Really? You think OR 4 is a joke?

but technology actually becomes a serious challenge for magic users

Maybe you've missed all the probability slinging that's gone around in the recent threads. OR 6 is not "a serious challenge". OR 6 is regularly unconquerable for all but the most powerful, min maxed mages.

Do the mages in your games have 18+ spellcasting dice?

How long did it take for them to get there?

How much karma did they spend?

[JonathanC]

I agree that under the new rules, it becomes very difficult. It doesn't break the game though, since we aren't all forced to play mages. What is difficult for a mage is trivial for a hacker/rigger who just spoofs the drone, or breaks in and feeds the camera false information. To put it another way, how come none of us were complaining about how impossible it was for street sams and hackers to banish spirits? Or counterspell?

This is definitely a nerf for mages, but it's not a game-breaker.

[Draco18s]

Because there is finally a decent reason to make sure that you have riggers and hackers around.

I want to tell you to shut up right now. But I won't. I have nothing against hackers (riggers are almost an entirely different class of character), but for me and my group hackers are not fun to play. They sit there waiting waiting waiting, "OH! CAMERAS!" Roll dice, it's gone. Waiting waiting waiting...

Making the game fun for the hacker requires that everyone else go get pizza.

The matrix is like the grapple rules of D&D:

Errata, April 1st

Page 156 – Starting a Grapple [Substitution/Deletion]
Replace “Step 1: Attack of Opportunity� text with the following:
“Step 1: Stop Your Game: You and all players stop gameplay. Other players may elect to go get pizza and Mountain Dew (it’s in the fridge) while you sit at the table and carefully reconsider your decision to grapple. If you still wish to grapple after the other players return, repeat this step."

[JonathanC]

I want to tell you to learn how to play a goddamn roleplaying game, but I won't.

Grapple rules are really simple once you've used them like, twice. The only person that they might "ruin" the combat for is the poor fool doing the grappling, who is usually left tussling with an enemy for several rounds while everybody else runs around stabbing stuff.

Hackers, similarly, are only a serious problem if you:

1. Didn't plan ahead, and keep looking up stats/rules
2. Insist on resolving the entire hack before moving on

The Matrix uses the same initiative intervals for a reason; it's an action that you can do in combat like anything else. You want to hack that guy's gun? Fine. Wait your turn, while the sammy fills him with lead. I definitely agree that Shadowrun is a challenge to run because of the number of different rules, but if you have a hacker, it's not the end of the world to look up the damn rules, make some cards, and move on. The basic mechanics are the same, so I don't see what the problem is. Just because you happen to prefer mages to hackers doesn't mean that making hackers obsolete, or mages able to do everything, is a good idea.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I want to tell you to learn how to play a goddamn roleplaying game, but I won't.

Grapple rules are really simple once you've used them like, twice. The only person that they might "ruin" the combat for is the poor fool doing the grappling, who is usually left tussling with an enemy for several rounds while everybody else runs around stabbing stuff.

Hackers, similarly, are only a serious problem if you:

1. Didn't plan ahead, and keep looking up stats/rules
2. Insist on resolving the entire hack before moving on

The Matrix uses the same initiative intervals for a reason; it's an action that you can do in combat like anything else. You want to hack that guy's gun? Fine. Wait your turn, while the sammy fills him with lead. I definitely agree that Shadowrun is a challenge to run because of the number of different rules, but if you have a hacker, it's not the end of the world to look up the damn rules, make some cards, and move on. The basic mechanics are the same, so I don't see what the problem is. Just because you happen to prefer mages to hackers doesn't mean that making hackers obsolete, or mages able to do everything, is a good idea.

While I don't think the hacking rules are that hard to integrate into the flow of the game if you think mages are that overpowered and hackers are obsolete maybe you should reread the rules a bit. Sure there are broken things in magic, but there are broken things throughout this game. Unless you are a douche when making your character and go out of your way to exploit broken rules, mages in practice wont shine more than others and hackers will have plenty of time to shine.

[Mäx]

I understand the affect on illusions, and I can see the issue here, but doesn't that just mean that you'd have to hack the cameras. Magical illusions would still be useful against people, and still have the possibility of affecting machines, but technology actually becomes a serious challenge for magic users, so that all-magic or magic heavy groups become less useful in some ways. This isn't really a bad thing, since all-tech groups are completely useless against anything magical.

It is a very bad think, becouse know many spell that are designed to affect technolygy , all of a sudden can't do that anymore with any kind of consitancy.
I bet all those special effect wizards who work for hollywood are really happy know that they cot all fired for not being able to do theit job, becouse the fundemental rules of magic in the world changed over night.

[Draco18s]

1) I tried to be a little humorous about that, even posting the D&D errata from April Fool's Day.

Hackers, similarly, are only a serious problem if you:

1. Didn't plan ahead, and keep looking up stats/rules
2. Insist on resolving the entire hack before moving on

1) My GM doesn't plan. Anytime he tries we do something he hadn't planned for anyway. There is nothing I as a player can do to fix this.
2) We've tried that too. The GM managed one session providing enough detail to make it worth it. Then it came down to "roll some dice vs X." Then it was, "Here, roll dice vs X and another player will do the opposing rolls as to not slow things down for everyone." Then the player scrapped their character and became a vampire (for about three sessions before swapping again).

[knasser]

Actually, I dropped in a little comment, sure, but I want to expand that a bit.

How many people involved in these "OMG my mage is useless now" threads have actually played a game/session with a character using these rules?

Because I'm serious when I call all of this stuff armchair theorizing. I can't tell you how many times I've left these boards thinking "OMG that stuff they were talking about is crazy broken" etc. only to find out during a game that what was such a big deal on DS...barely mattered at all during gameplay. (Mostly back in the SR3 days; by now I've learned enough to just ignore the gaming internet arguments except to wonder at them.)

And so it is with most of the "biggie" rules discussions on the boards. Remember long shots, and how "broken" they are? Sure, broken in a vacuum where there's no GM and players are rules-bending asshats. So on and so forth.

Yes. I have fairly extensive GMing experience with magicians. One of the reasons I tend not to run around in a panic each time someone posts another "magic is broken" post. Usually a gentle nudge toward the visibility modifiers and a quoting of the autofire rules calms things down a bit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

K.

[knasser]

Later today, when I have time, okay?

Very early, rough proposal: Possession tradition, possibly an Ougun Voodoo, Spells Stunball and -bolt.


I'll see what I can come up with.

All builds should be considered under SR4 rules, not SR4A, regarding effectiveness. The point I was trying tto make is that the changes make such charatcers much less viable, so under the new rules, a viable one man shadowrunner team should not be possible.

Okay Hermit. I'm waiting for your "one-man shadowrunner team" that can handle everything the samurai can straight out of chargen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The thread, in case you've missed it, is here.

K.

[Mordinvan]

I personally like the object resistance tables. Mages where too powerful, too versatile. I think giving them a big weakness, difficulty dealing with technology is fitting, considering they are gods agienst living targets. So it's difficult to turn invisible in front of a camera, it's not impossible. Heck, using a dice pool of 12(not unusual for a starting mage), you have a 60.7% chance of getting 4 hits, and a 91.7% chance if you use edge to reroll misses. Thats pretty good odds. If you don't like it, get a hacker...or a chameleon suit, or summon a spirit with the concealment power.

And every spell they could get they paid for, with money, karma and time (both to get and then to learn)
If you charged a sami karma ever time he bought a new toy from arsenal, I'm pretty sure they'd get fed up right away.
If you charged a hacker karma ever time be bought a new program they'd scream bloody murder.
Charge a mage karma for a new spell, then say "damn, that mage spending karma to improve himself... guess I'd better nerf him."

[Mordinvan]

And essence, which cannot be increased, ever. You seem to fail to recognise this.

Really?
So I can't get delta grade ware?
type "o"
biocomptabability?
adaptsin?
cyberware packages?

seems I can rather easily increase my effective essence.
Then to be a prick I can become a CZ and cram even more ware in, upto -6 essence, so by the time everything is said and one I would have 30-40 essence of gear in me....