List of spells affected by the 4A OR table. Options

[Mäx]

Really?
So I can't get delta grade ware?
type "o"
biocomptabability?
adaptsin?
cyberware packages?

seems I can rather easily increase my effective essence.
Then to be a prick I can become a CZ and cram even more ware in, upto -6 essence, so by the time everything is said and one I would have 30-40 essence of gear in me....

You can get every single piece of ware that tacks together and still not be in -6 essence. You could even get pretty much every piece of ware you want for any given character without even going below zero essence. So it's not that big of a limit for mundanes.

[Mordinvan]

This isn't really a bad thing, since all-tech groups are completely useless against anything magical.

Like what exactly?
can you name a magical event or phenomena with the exception of ritual casting a mundane does not have the ability to counter?

[Malicant]

I bet all those special effect wizards who work for hollywood are really happy know that they cot all fired for not being able to do theit job, becouse the fundemental rules of magic in the world changed over night.

Hahahahaha! I haven't thought about them. They are totally boned now, unless they are world class casters with world class equipment. Which simply does not make sense. Awesome, thank you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Like what exactly?
can you name a magical event or phenomena with the exception of ritual casting a mundane does not have the ability to counter?

Well, that would be spirits of course! Unless the mundanes use Spirit-Slayer™ Ammunition, formerly known als APDS.

[Werewindlefr]

Electronic Equipment includes cameras and most sensor devices

Most cameras include internal computers, which are OR 4 according to the old rules. We're not talking about 1930's cameras. The other examples of OR 3 are way, way bellow the tech level for a digital camera.

I think electronic equipment, here, refers to components and simple circuits, like a detonator. Otherwise, a computer is electronic equipment too.

[suppenhuhn]

Hahahahaha! I haven't thought about them. They are totally boned now, unless they are world class casters with world class equipment. Which simply does not make sense. Awesome, thank you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Actually they should be alive and happy since those things are recorded with implants so normal illusions work on them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[JonathanC]

It is a very bad think, becouse know many spell that are designed to affect technolygy , all of a sudden can't do that anymore with any kind of consitancy.
I bet all those special effect wizards who work for hollywood are really happy know that they cot all fired for not being able to do theit job, becouse the fundemental rules of magic in the world changed over night.

Couldn't they just ritual cast? Or use a spirit task to assist them? In real life, special effects wizards take weeks, sometimes months of planning and preparation to achieve an effect. I hardly think it's world-breaking that SR special effects wizards might have to take a little time to prep a spirit or a ritual.

[knasser]

Most cameras include internal computers, which are OR 4 according to the old rules. We're not talking about 1930's cameras. The other examples of OR 3 are way, way bellow the tech level for a digital camera.

I think you're right - security cameras should probably be OR6 if you go by the examples in the SR4A book along with computers. They certainly rank above advanced plastics and alloys and "Electronic Equipment" to me suggests things like volt meters and hi-fi speakers, etc. However, the "cameras are OR 4" notion comes from a post from Synner (one of the devs) who said that they were OR 4. Which is why you're finding people using that.

K.

[JonathanC]

Really?
So I can't get delta grade ware?
type "o"
biocomptabability?
adaptsin?
cyberware packages?

seems I can rather easily increase my effective essence.
Then to be a prick I can become a CZ and cram even more ware in, upto -6 essence, so by the time everything is said and one I would have 30-40 essence of gear in me....

You say that as though the months of surgery, recovery time, and overall loss of sanity/character control that comes with the options you are mentioning are somehow equivalent to the relative ease and convenience of, say, Initiating.

Really, the fact that this is infuriating so many people just proves the point that magic has become too overpowered in Shadowrun; we all just gave up and went for Awakened, because cyber and gear requires too much bookkeeping and compromise.

[Draco18s]

Well, that would be spirits of course! Unless the mundanes use Spirit-Slayer™ Ammunition, formerly known als APDS.

Or Stick And Shock, which while it doesn't reduce armor is Electrical Damage and thus not subject to the Immunity To Normal Weapons rule.

Of course, you shouldn't be countering spirits with mages anyway. Spirits are there to counter mages because Critter Powers aren't subject to Counterspelling.

[Mäx]

You say that as though the months of surgery, recovery time, and overall loss of sanity/character control that comes with the options you are mentioning are somehow equivalent to the relative ease and convenience of, say, Initiating.

What sanity loss, it's really hard to make someone a CZ if you using all the other options, there just isn't enought usefull ware to fill 5,999 essence if you use all the options availebull to you.

[Mordinvan]

You say that as though the months of surgery, recovery time, and overall loss of sanity/character control that comes with the options you are mentioning are somehow equivalent to the relative ease and convenience of, say, Initiating.

Which can take months and sometimes a journey to alternate planes of reality facing terrors beyond mortal comprehension at the threat of the loss of your very soul.....
Oh, and karma.

Really, the fact that this is infuriating so many people just proves the point that magic has become too overpowered in Shadowrun; we all just gave up and went for Awakened, because cyber and gear requires too much bookkeeping and compromise.

So if a cop gives you a speeding ticket for no good reason and you become upset over it, it proves you were speeding?
You have some very interesting logic my friend.
Say a hacker needed to pay karma just to BUY programs with. And that said Hacker just had the thresholds on all his tests on say.... drones, go up by 2. Then tell the hacker that any time he gets successes using his most effective programs he suffer feed back at a rate of one box of damage per success.

Then tell him that complaining you've just gooned his class PROVES his class was overpowered in the first place.

Let me know how that works out for you. Seriously try it at your table, and let us know how well it goes over.

[Dakka Dakka]

It may be a bit off-topic, but there two things recently posted that are wrong in my opinion.
a) Unless a character gets a negative quality he is just as sane with 0,001 Essence as he is with 6.
b) it does not matter if the Stick-n-Shock ammo does electrical damage. It is not a magic weapon and so the spirit's armor applies, but it is reduced as any other armor.

[Mordinvan]

b) it does not matter if the Stick-n-Shock ammo does electrical damage. It is not a magic weapon and so the spirit's armor applies, but it is reduced as any other armor.

Point being, mundanes are not helpless against spirits who are attacking them.

[JonathanC]

It may be a bit off-topic, but there two things recently posted that are wrong in my opinion.
a) Unless a character gets a negative quality he is just as sane with 0,001 Essence as he is with 6.
b) it does not matter if the Stick-n-Shock ammo does electrical damage. It is not a magic weapon and so the spirit's armor applies, but it is reduced as any other armor.

Yes, but once he goes into negative essence and becomes a cyber-zombie, this is no longer true.

[Mäx]

Yes, but once he goes into negative essence and becomes a cyber-zombie, this is no longer true.

Did you read my reply at all, there isn't really any reson to become a CZ.

[suppenhuhn]

Well, awakened can get deltaware as well and since they can initiate without limits they can go as low as 1 essence which, at the point mundanes can afford full deltaware, will most likely still leave them a magic of 6 or more.

[Malicant]

Actually they should be alive and happy since those things are recorded with implants so normal illusions work on them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

What might be true for SimSense, is far less true for regular Trid. It's still out there.

[suppenhuhn]

What might be true for SimSense, is far less true for regular Trid. It's still out there.

You're so 2040. Really. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Draco18s]

It may be a bit off-topic, but there two things recently posted that are wrong in my opinion.
b) it does not matter if the Stick-n-Shock ammo does electrical damage. It is not a magic weapon and so the spirit's armor applies, but it is reduced as any other armor.

Point where it says that electricity is subject to ItNW. I recall that electricity is elemental damage, just like Lightning Bolt is.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Point where it says that electricity is subject to ItNW. I recall that electricity is elemental damage, just like Lightning Bolt is.

In 4A at least, the immunity to normal weapons description drops elemental damage as a way past it. Still you can carry a taser which does 8s and 1/2s armor and that will drop most spirits, except absurdly high force ones.

[Draco18s]

In 4A at least, the immunity to normal weapons description drops elemental damage as a way past it. Still you can carry a taser which does 8s and 1/2s armor and that will drop most spirits, except absurdly high force ones.

...
*The silence is punctuated by an added tally mark next to "Stay with SR4" and not "Upgrade to SR4A"*

[Malicant]

Spirit-B-Gone Tasers™. Now with extra juice.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Spirit-B-Gone Tasers™. Now with extra juice.

Heck 1 net success will hurt a force 8 spirit with a taser. Also stick and shock in an automatic weapon and using a wide spread to reduce the dodge and your net successes will probably knock the base DV to like 10-12, bye bye spirit. Heck it was easier in 4E, stick and shock just ignored all of the spirits armor. The claim that mundanes are boned when facing magic is not substantiated by the rules of the game. It might be by the fluff of the game but not the rules.

[JonathanC]

If the Spirit merely manifests itself and tries to beat them to death, then yes, they'll be fine. If, however, decides to, y'know, ACT LIKE A SPIRIT, they're hosed.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

If you were directing the spell at the camera I might agree with you. But you are instead bending light around you so you actually just look different. The guard seeing that the illusion is a fake due to a good roll makes sense, the camera not even seeing the illusion does not make sense.

Bending light? Oh, right, you're thinking of the manipulation version of Trid Phantasm.