SR4A-WOW, the carnage Options

[JTNLANGE]

Well I guess I just have a clueless group of players. We have fun, tell a good story(I hope), enjoy the game. All I hear on these forums, is how this is really going to screw up mages and ruin SR forever. Does everyone realize that the whole purpose is to have fun? I have yet to play a mage or have a mage character the was not a fun intergal part of the group and used all his skills as best he could. I have had spellcasters knocked out from drain, blow whole city blocks and everything inbetween. If you don't like the rules don't use them. If you like the rules use them. CGL has made a great edition to SR. I have been playing this since day 1, I was one of the first to pick this game up in Milwaukee(I know hard to prove but I am pretty sure on that) and I am getting worn out listening to all these complaints. Hey we all love the game and I know most of it is done with love in mind, just wanting to make sure out beloved game continues, but come on people lets all step back take a deep breath and call Mr. Johnson and ask what the next job is.


Just my $.02. Sorry if this sounds like trolling or flaming just like everyone else I just want to see my favorite game survive.

Trevor L.

[Tyro]

It's nice to see a positive, non-flaming post about this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No matter what play style you prefer, I agree: Please remember that we're here to have fun.

[Draco18s]

I have yet to play a mage or have a mage character the was not a fun intergal part of the group and used all his skills as best he could.

So in other words, it's fun to Not Be Capable Of Anything? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

That is, an illusion mage who can't cast illusions well enough to hide from a simple camera just because he didn't buy his magic up to 8.

[Mikado]

Well I guess I just have a clueless group of players. We have fun, tell a good story(I hope), enjoy the game. All I hear on these forums, is how this is really going to screw up mages and ruin SR forever. Does everyone realize that the whole purpose is to have fun? I have yet to play a mage or have a mage character the was not a fun intergal part of the group and used all his skills as best he could. I have had spellcasters knocked out from drain, blow whole city blocks and everything inbetween. If you don't like the rules don't use them. If you like the rules use them. CGL has made a great edition to SR. I have been playing this since day 1, I was one of the first to pick this game up in Milwaukee(I know hard to prove but I am pretty sure on that) and I am getting worn out listening to all these complaints. Hey we all love the game and I know most of it is done with love in mind, just wanting to make sure out beloved game continues, but come on people lets all step back take a deep breath and call Mr. Johnson and ask what the next job is.


Just my $.02. Sorry if this sounds like trolling or flaming just like everyone else I just want to see my favorite game survive.

Trevor L.

Yes, the idea is to have fun.
We can have fun with the rules changes. We can, and will, adapt.
The problem is not changing the rules. The problem is the way they where changed.

And: 'Drink up Socrates! It's all natural!"

[JTNLANGE]

Well, I will say I have not used the SR4A rules yet, but I guess my play style is just out there. I can honestly say have have never used an Illusion spell in SR.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Besides - a lot of the complaints are coming from people who play at conventions...which pretty much means they're stuck with the rules-as-written.

And this isn't nearly the doom-and-gloom scene that was the launch of SR4.

[knasser]

I like most of the changes and have a lot of respect for the devs and what they've accomplished. And I've been praising the loveliness of the Anniversary Edition repeatedly.

There are just two changes of concern to me. One has issues but I'm keeping it. The other I don't like and am getting rid of. But in neither case am I giving up on a great edition of a great game.

So, yes - good to have a positive thread on this.

[BlueMax]

So in other words, it's fun to Not Be Capable Of Anything? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

That is, an illusion mage who can't cast illusions well enough to hide from a simple camera just because he didn't buy his magic up to 8.

Blatant exaggeration hurts your cause.

Synnner posted OR 4 for cameras, yes? 5 magic 5 spellcasting 2 from mentor, average roll...(Rod Forbid that someone with an illusion mentor spirit have an edge (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )
The caster knows how successful before field test, yes?
Mages can do sooo much more than trick cameras yes?

And they are the only ones who can fool all the cameras.

Is it harder now? Yes.

The forums are certainly not as much fun when one has to read the same biased information over and over.
This goes for me too, so I have tried to slow down the old post chain on these subjects

[Draco18s]

Well, I will say I have not used the SR4A rules yet, but I guess my play style is just out there. I can honestly say have have never used an Illusion spell in SR.

This really happened:

Mage: I mind control the troll and have him open fire on the rest of the security guards.
GM: The other security open fire and drop him
Mage: I cast Trid Phatasm and make it look like the troll rises from the dead and saunters into the room, taking all the lead the security team can throw at him.
PCs: Under the cover of the distraction we grab what we need and run.

You have no idea how effective Illusions can be. Same mage a few sessions later Trid Phantasm'd up some trolls in the middle of a gang fight (we were busting in on the gang's headquaters) and the four or six guys in this other room see these trolls walk in with miniguns and surrender (the first room we'd slaughtered, trolls did take a little flak, but being illusions it didn't matter...except that it was flak not directed at a PC).

[Tyro]

This really happened:

Mage: I mind control the troll and have him open fire on the rest of the security guards.
GM: The other security open fire and drop him
Mage: I cast Trid Phatasm and make it look like the troll rises from the dead and saunters into the room, taking all the lead the security team can throw at him.
PCs: Under the cover of the distraction we grab what we need and run.

You have no idea how effective Illusions can be. Same mage a few sessions later Trid Phantasm'd up some trolls in the middle of a gang fight (we were busting in on the gang's headquaters) and the four or six guys in this other room see these trolls walk in with miniguns and surrender (the first room we'd slaughtered, trolls did take a little flak, but being illusions it didn't matter...except that it was flak not directed at a PC).

O.o

I'm building an illusionist now.

[Draco18s]

A generous GM will cause the firearms from the illusions to use up dodges. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Ours wasn't that generous.

[Larme]

The irony to me is that most of the people screaming bloody murder probably use their own houserules already, anyway. The only people who care deeply about the fine-tuned mechanics of the game system are the same people who tweak and re-tweak it to their liking. People are going to throw a huge fit, and then either keep using the same old rules, or house-rule the stuff they don't like. Which they've probably done already -- nobody who's going to pitch a fit about these things is likely to be a purist who plays SR4 wholly unaltered in the first place. You can rage about how the game system should be perfect and you shouldn't need to make house rules, it should fit you like a glove fresh out of the box, but it's not going to change anything.

I agree with the OP's laid back style. It's a game about having fun. If the rules are messing up your fun, change them. The designers are trying to write a game that they think is fun, but despite their best efforts some people won't like it. Anyone who can blame them for that needs to get over themselves.

[pbangarth]

I have been playing this since day 1, I was one of the first to pick this game up in Milwaukee(I know hard to prove but I am pretty sure on that) and I am getting worn out listening to all these complaints.
Trevor L.

I think I saw you there! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[hobgoblin]

Besides - a lot of the complaints are coming from people who play at conventions...which pretty much means they're stuck with the rules-as-written.

and seem to approach it a competetive sport...

[wylie]

thanks for the positive view

its all about the fun

yeah, if you play at conventions, these are the rules you are stuck with

homegames, i am gonna do th esame, keep what i like & toss the rest out the window

and i still say its great designed book (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Wounded Ronin]

Does everyone realize that the whole purpose is to have fun?

What if the purpose is to have more fine-tuneable statistics? What if fun is defined as tactical battles with ninjas and little margin for error, like a 1970s groin-punching Avalon Hill game?

Why are old Avalon Hill games like Titan still fun, whereas the blur of forgettable console video games rolling out today is totally forgettable? Because the first was challenging, cereberal, and memorable. The crap coming out today is two dimensional, easy, and repetitite.

[Malicant]

It's nice to see a positive, non-flaming post about this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No matter what play style you prefer, I agree: Please remember that we're here to have fun.

Maybe you are, but I'm here to kick ass and chew bubble gum. And I'm all out of gum. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Adarael]

Conversely, I'm all out of ass.

[Cain]

In addition to the con players, there's some of us who play online heavily. Having to have different characters for SR4.0 and 4.5 is a pain in the butt.

There's also a good percentage of people who like the idea of the changes, but don't like how they're implemented, feeling like there's gaping abuse holes left in the ruleset. Overcasting direct combat spells is a huge example of this.

[Glyph]

You know, if you're getting "worn out with the complaints", no one's forcing you to read the threads which are clearly labeled as SR4A discussion. People who have had their play style crapped all over by a drastic rules change have every right to speak their mind in a (relatively) civil manner. I haven't seen any obscenity-filled tirades or death threats in the discussion, just people's expressions of their disappointment with the changes, usually pretty specific and well-reasoned.

We all play for "fun", but some people's idea of fun involves their favorite characters being able to function well in certain areas within the fictional world of shadowrun. The rules of the game are there to provide a framework for resolving how everyone's characters fail or succeed, letting everyone participate in the same shared reality and adding a genuine random element to it. So anything impacting their fairness or consistency can make the game less fun.

[Draco18s]

I haven't seen any obscenity-filled tirades or death threats in the discussion, just people's expressions of their disappointment with the changes, usually pretty specific and well-reasoned.

I'll kill you for that! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[AllTheNothing]

I'll kill you for that! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Out of topic:
I've just noticed that your head's spinning with negative angular velocity.

[knasser]

Maybe you are, but I'm here to kick ass and chew bubble gum. And I'm all out of gum. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

I hate to be the one to break this news to you, but they're re-making that film. Or maybe "They" are re-making this film. Not against that in principle - all the cool ideas with non of the Eighties directing and plastic aliens... But based on previous examples of remakes, you might want to be afraid. And not for a good reason. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Malicant]

You got to be kidding me. I am curious though, how much they will change the premise. Something along the lines of "They are the good guys and the guy with glasses is a terrorist loathing their way of life". I'm sure they can think of something worse, more removed even. Well, at least it will have improved visual value. Maybe it will entertain at least a little.

I have to re-watch that movie now.

And yes, in a way I am afraid. Very much so. I just need to remember The Day the Earth was not told what the hell just happend to see possibilities for laughter and tears alike.

[The Mack]

It's a game about having fun. If the rules are messing up your fun, change them. The designers are trying to write a game that they think is fun...

1) It's not fun needing a completely tricked out mage with 18+ dice to affect even a microdrone.

2) It's easy for GMs to change the rules. But not having to change rules is better. Also, not everyone is in charge of changing the rules in the games they play in.

3) the designers are attempting to fix perceived problems, but are going about them in the wrong ways. They also tried to keep the spell design system intact, while simultaneously ruining 3 significantly large groups of spells.

For me, these things are the opposite of fun.