How easy should it be?, A meta-thread about players and GMs Options

[Degausser]

As a poll, how do you like your runs? For me, the fun is from winning, but always only getting by with the skin of my teeth. When I've spent all my Karma pool and I am at 7 boxes of physical damage, and we just finished the run. As a GM, I can make that happen. But some of my players like to simply sneeze through runs, which I can do too. They want to be the bad-@$$, kick down th door and mow down thirty guys types. And, to be fair, I can do that too (After all, as a GM you can tailor your campaign to anything you want). Thing is, then I, as a GM, am not having any fun, as I am basically setting up pins for them to knock down.

What do you, as players, like for your campaigns to be like, and how do the GMs out there have fun?

[TBRMInsanity]

I like a challenge, one that it is possible for me to meet but still a challenge. If I can sail through all the combat and there are no fights were tactics or negotiations are the deciding factor in the game, I find it boring. I also like games with a good story. I'm playing because of the story and I should get a story. If I just want to hack and slash my way through enemies on door at a time I will play Munchkin D20.

[Maelstrome]

as a player i generally dont care about difficulty or power level as long as i have fun playing the game. and the groups ive played with are the same except for one guy who is more about realism, difficulty and fairness.

i dont care how easy or hard it is as long as it is somewhat feasible.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

There are all different kinds of fun to be had. Role playing, solving puzzles, wining combats, etc. I like a challenge, and I enjoy role-playing when I'm doing it well. Knocking down the pins that the GM sets up is not all that much fun. That's okay when there's a lot of challenge leading up to that point.

However, sometimes I set up something on my character, and I really want to be able to do it at least once. If that one time is a push-over, so be it. At least I got to do it.

Degausser, what about your team that wants to be the badasses? How do they act when you make it a challenge, they only pull through by the skin of their teeth? Is it not fun for them and they complain?

[Degausser]

Wind_in_the_Stone:
These guys, in general, like to feel that they are the creme de la creme. For them, it is fun to run around, beating bosses without getting hit, and generally feel like they are crazy powerful. I have yet to actually start the shadowrun campaign with them, but I have played with them before, and they find it fun and hilarious when they get to walk through a flamethrower without taking any damage. I remember, the last session I played with them in a DnD campaign, they were furious when I through them up against a some equally-powered foes and they just barely managed to come out on top.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

We play Runequest now and then, for a change of pace. I remember a couple of times we went up against some powerful foe that I was sure was going to toast us, and I was a bit upset about that. But then we won, with no casualties. I was then a bit amused at my previous attitude. I give credit to our GM for balancing the combat pretty well - even if he adjusted it after it started. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[kzt]

My feeling is that I want to have fun. One aspect of fun is having a really well thought out plan work. So yeah, if we put together a really clever plan that accounts for the opposition I like being able to cruise in and out. sometimes you have to slap together crappy plans and they should not work like clockwork very often. Sometimes they kick the door in shooting is fun, but it tends to get you kind of shot up.

I HATE situations like a particular missions scenario where essentially you can't do the job no matter how cleverly you put it together. And after you spend hours trying to find a way to do it anyhow it turns out that you never had chance and you never even arrive at the target before the target call you on the phone. If the idiot who wrote the scenario wasn't going to let you try why the hell did they keep throwing roadblocks, where pretty much every angle you could take was covered?

[Glyph]

I think Shadowrun shouldn't be a cakewalk - it should be moderately challenging. Keep in mind that it's a fairly lethal game, where even ordinary grunts have a chance of hurting a prime runner. If you make the enemies as tough as the characters, then you will have a 50% fatality rate - enemies should be imposing, but rarely the statistical equal of the PCs. I think that adventures should be geared more or less towards the PCs' level, but legwork, sneaking, and lateral thinking should be rewarded. The point is often to get in and out with no one the wiser, not clear out each room like a D&D party going through a dungeon.

The wider word, however, should exist separately from the PCs - if they blunder into the Tir embassy and try to shoot a high-ranking diplomat, the Paladins shouldn't suddenly be gimped so that the PCs have a chance. Nor should the mall security guard have pistols: 6 just to make him "challenging". That's not to say you can't put in the occasional ringer (an assassin whose rep is overhyped, or a security guard who spends a lot of time at the shooting range), but for the most part, the world itself shouldn't automatically adjust to the PCs' level of ability. So as far as PCs who want to be badasses - let them, when they are going up against inferior opposition. Then you can make things a bit more tense when they go up against the heavy hitters. If all they ever want to do is the equivalent of a group of 10th level fighters whacking kobolds, tell them to go play Candyland.

[Lindt]

I think I just have a simple group to keep happy. I write a good story, flesh out some convincing characters, and keep it fresh. Some runs its very film-noir legwork in dark shadows, others its Hollywood blow-up-everything-in sight, and other times its Starwars (eps 3 and 5, where shit pretty much goes wrong for the good guys). And just once, there was that somewhat strange romantic comedy that could only exist because 2 of my 3 core player are female, and it didn't get all weird. Ill admit I didn't see the end that run ever ending that way when I wrote it.

But the important thing is I play to those flavors. It took one astute player 3 hours to figure out when I stopped looking at my laptop, they where off script for their legwork-athon. I have been known to just hand-wave a LOT of things to keep combat moving when its a John Woo styled action sequence (though I have yet to crack out any white doves for them). And they get their moneys worth from their Doc Wagon contracts when I decided to kick their asses to the curb and take their toys. Dwarf modded Ares Alphas cost a lot of money.

*edit*

I think Shadowrun shouldn't be a cakewalk - it should be moderately challenging. Keep in mind that it's a fairly lethal game, where even ordinary grunts have a chance of hurting a prime runner. If you make the enemies as tough as the characters, then you will have a 50% fatality rate - enemies should be imposing, but rarely the statistical equal of the PCs...

...So as far as PCs who want to be badasses - let them, when they are going up against inferior opposition. Then you can make things a bit more tense when they go up against the heavy hitters.

Yep.

This post has been edited by Lindt: Mar 22 2009, 06:49 AM

[TheDarkPhoenix]

I think it is safe to say, any shadowrun where you have to use your gun, has gone horribly wrong. The goal as a shadowrunner is to get in, get the goods, and get out without a single shot. ...but we all know that rarely happens. Shadowrun by nature of its rules, is a leathel game, as mentioned above. Among the various books, you can usually find the statistics for a specific type of character to populate the world with.

[crazyconscript]

Although a lot of run's tend to just go downhill fast once the bullets start flying, most players want to be able to put their shiny toys into action. Usually these shiny toys tend to be implements of horrible death of one description or another, and the characters that possess them very good at making them work. I tend to let players get the kind of work that suits them, and as long as they understand that danger is involved, they mostly seem to be ok with not shooting/slicing/impaling/dissecting/blowup up things. But they still get to do them when the job requires it. Or they act stupidly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) (in which case things tend to escalate) or creatively (anyone else for a bit of minor terrorism so i can get into the club for free?)

[JaronK]

One thing I hate is GMs that always make plan A fail, no matter what. That's always really annoying. So, I think the run should be relatively easy as long as the runners plan correctly. Of course, Shadowrun isn't Shadowrun without a little backstabbing, so if the players make a great plan that doesn't take into account some piece of information that they'd have a real tough time learning, then c'est la vie.

JaronK

[wind_in_the_ston...]

So as far as PCs who want to be badasses - let them, when they are going up against inferior opposition. Then you can make things a bit more tense when they go up against the heavy hitters.

And when they complain about the difficulty, just shrug and say, "these were the heavy hitters. You run into them occasionally." And then next week, give them the mooks. And adjust their pay accordingly.

[crazyconscript]

^ good point. The rewards involved can make shadowrunner ignore or notice a lot.

[Pendaric]

How long is a piece of string?

The answer is," enough".

Without real challenge there is no real achievement. Without some level of real achievement its an empty gesture of make believe.

That challenge can come from playing your character well, tactic's, investigation, buisness stratergy, team building, leadership, comedy, some revelational epipheny about a something or someone, empathy, player ettiquette etc

If you or your players feel that turning up and roleplaying was a waste of time, consider it a fail.