Is magic broken, let's keep it simple Options

[Draco18s]

Touche.

[Cain]

No, particularly as it is explained in SR4.5, as the character suffers major consequences for their actions, or the actions visited upon them.

Fixed your error. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

In the scenario you describe above, I would not use Edge to respond to the character's phenomenal success in a Summoning (also Binding?). Not just because of his treatment of spirits in general or the Spirit Affinity bonus. A Force 16 spirit has mental stats higher than a Great Dragon. He may be pissed of at being sucked away from his card game by a piddly little metahuman (Cute though he may be!), and at the same time willing to put up with the inconvenience because it is only temporary. He KNOWS that if this arrogant little shit keeps up this act, sooner or later his face will melt off from the Drain. And that will be very satisfying.

So, let me get this clear: there is *no way* a force 16 spirit will treat a PC, no matter how they roleplay or what their stats are, as anything but an "arrogant little s**t"?

The burning of Edge, whatever metaphysical effect it represents, is something the spirit should be aware of, if for no other reason than the spirit-summoner link.

That doesn't change the fact that having the spirit burn Edge is CHEESE. Any NPC burning Edge is GM cheese of the worst order. You can try and justify it however you like, it's cheating and it's not right. I mean, a NPC about to die should burn Edge on a soak roll to survive, right? That's exactly the same thing. It's not fair, it's not right, and it is cheating.

[Mordinvan]

It would appear to me that you are suggesting that an entity with a personality and intelligence more forceful than Lofwyr's would put up with the possibility of an INSECT bossing it around forever, refraining from freeing itself from servitude because it isn't 'fair' to fight back with all its powers.

How does that make sense to you?

To me it makes sense the spirit if it were that pissed would do something like ask another spirit, or dragon or other such force to have "words" with the summoner, and let them know if they keep pissing on people in high places a force 36 power ball could visited upon them in the near future.
If the player keeps pissing off the spirit after that friendly warning, then TPTB should just nuke the character by materializing from the deep astral into his bedroom one night.

[Shilaleagh]

So, let me get this clear: there is *no way* a force 16 spirit will treat a PC, no matter how they roleplay or what their stats are, as anything but an "arrogant little s**t"?

See, Im with Cain on this one to be honest. Mechanically, my lil shaman runs around pulling F10+ spirits out as a matter of course (though not binding them) simply to keep up with the rest of the team, and to date has failed his drain roll once. Sure, he has 1 maybe 2 favours out of each, sometimes gets lucky and has 4 or 5, but he's still able to do it.

But even though he *can* call them willy nilly, he's not stupid enough to do anything but treat them with the utmost respect. These aren't the guys you wanna piss off, so if you want someone to cleanup on isle 12.. don't be calling these guys. He only uses them in their appropriate tasks, and is probably more touchy about what the spirit gets used for than the spirit itself (he's outright refused to send the spirit on some tasks the party decided he would be best fit for.. which he was, but it's beneath such a thing and demeaning). With things like spirit affinity, a high charisma and properly rp'd interaction with the spirit as it's own personality in it's own right, not treating it as nothing more than a random "gopher", i don't see the problem.

And did you say bound spirit? Just to check though as im having a mental blank and don't have my books on me, don't bound spirits need to me made from a formulae that effectively creates the spirit itself right? and if so, said spirit is effectively newborn (but not a retard) but may also view the designer of the spirit formulae with a posible parent figure and attach themselves to them in much the same manner as an orphan clinging desperately to the kind and nurturing person who brought it into existence?

.. either that or i'vehad way to much to .. erm.. drink, and i should just give up now.

[The Mack]

So, let me get this clear: there is *no way* a force 16 spirit will treat a PC, no matter how they roleplay or what their stats are, as anything but an "arrogant little s**t"?

They also are ignoring how spirits summoned by different traditions act differently.


And while it's an odd example, how about Psionic tradition? A Psionic doesn't summon spirits, they create "thought constructs".


That's one example of how you can't simply put a single definition on how spirits act, they're designed to be the complete opposite of being easily defined.

[pbangarth]

Fixed your error. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Cute.

So, let me get this clear: there is *no way* a force 16 spirit will treat a PC, no matter how they roleplay or what their stats are, as anything but an "arrogant little s**t"?

Nope. That's not what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is there is some boundary -- a difficult to define and highly nebulous boundary, I admit -- beyond which the burning of Edge by a player to achieve something his character should not be able to do is an aberration of the rules and of the spirit of the game. Saying -no- NPC is able to resist such behaviour is ... nega-cheese. Let me give an example.

Without the right of spirits to spend Edge, immediately out of chargen a mage with Magic 6 and Edge of 4 or more can summon and bind a Force 12 spirit with at least 8 services (depending on how you interpret 'net successes') by burning Edge on each Test and on the subsequent Drain resistance. With judicious use of the spirit's powers, the PC, among many various uses for this powerful resource, for all intents and purposes doubles his 'escape death' chances, without the concomittent downtime and other consequences. And he can earn it all back and do it to the spirit some more.

You argue that if the PC wants to sacrifice the 40 BP he spent on the Edge to get the spirit, he deserves it. He bought and paid for it in 'blood and karma'. I argue a) that the spirit deserves the same laws of physics and metaphysics that apply to the PC, b) spirits with LOG 12 are not stupid, and c) the PC should recognize his limits and expect consequences for poking a stick into a nest of killer bees.

That doesn't change the fact that having the spirit burn Edge is CHEESE. Any NPC burning Edge is GM cheese of the worst order.

Edge only for PCs is cheese of the highest order. There is that other game, the one that causes cancer, for players who want that kind of guarantee.

You can try and justify it however you like, it's cheating and it's not right. I mean, a NPC about to die should burn Edge on a soak roll to survive, right? That's exactly the same thing. It's not fair, it's not right, and it is cheating.

Survive because of the 'escape death' roll does not mean stand up right away and start shooting again. The NPC is out of play just as a PC with that use of Edge.

[Zurai]

I argue a) that the spirit deserves the same laws of physics and metaphysics that apply to the PC, b) spirits with LOG 12 are not stupid

Neither of those has the slightest thing to do with Edge.

[Cain]

Survive because of the 'escape death' roll does not mean stand up right away and start shooting again. The NPC is out of play just as a PC with that use of Edge.

Then don't use Escape Certain Death. Burn Edge for a critical success on your soak roll, reducing those 20 hp from the gauss rifle to nothing. It happened in the situation I described: I massively overcast a direct combat spell, scored over eighteen successes thanks to exploding dice, nearly killed myself from the drain, and had it all wiped out when the NPC burned a single point of Edge. He was still up, fighting, and completely uninjured.

You argue that if the PC wants to sacrifice the 40 BP he spent on the Edge to get the spirit, he deserves it. He bought and paid for it in 'blood and karma'. I argue a) that the spirit deserves the same laws of physics and metaphysics that apply to the PC, b) spirits with LOG 12 are not stupid, and c) the PC should recognize his limits and expect consequences for poking a stick into a nest of killer bees.

I'm arguing rules and rules balance. You're arguing fluff. But in either case, it's still GM cheese to burn Edge. The fluff might support it, but fair game play does not.

Edge only for PCs is cheese of the highest order. There is that other game, the one that causes cancer, for players who want that kind of guarantee.

Burning Edge is indeed a PC-only sort of thing. Otherwise, we'd have every grunt and ganger burning Edge to survive, burning Edge to kill the PC's, and so on. All the opposition the PCs face should be smart enough to burn Edge on their soak rolls, enabling them to escape without injury.

[Tunnel Rat]

You argue that if the PC wants to sacrifice the 40 BP he spent on the Edge to get the spirit, he deserves it. He bought and paid for it in 'blood and karma'. I argue a) that the spirit deserves the same laws of physics and metaphysics that apply to the PC, b) spirits with LOG 12 are not stupid, and c) the PC should recognize his limits and expect consequences for poking a stick into a nest of killer bees.

Edge only for PCs is cheese of the highest order. There is that other game, the one that causes cancer, for players who want that kind of guarantee.

Survive because of the 'escape death' roll does not mean stand up right away and start shooting again. The NPC is out of play just as a PC with that use of Edge.

1. The game is about the players, not the NPCs.

2. Burning edge because your players burned edge is very bad form. It's an abuse of power. Now, allowing the cool NPC to burn edge and survive having a building dumped on him (for example) by the PCs is all right. Hey, they didn't find a body, right?

3. You're forgetting something. Spirits don't regain karma. If the mage burns edge he can earn more karma and buy his edge back. If the spirit burns edge, he has to make a pact with a mortal to regain that karma.

[Cain]

2. Burning edge because your players burned edge is very bad form. It's an abuse of power. Now, allowing the cool NPC to burn edge and survive having a building dumped on him (for example) by the PCs is all right. Hey, they didn't find a body, right?

That's Hand of God, which operates on a different principle. Hand of God is for NPC's. Escape Death is for PC's. So, different character types have different uses of Edge that's fair and legal.

[darthmord]

And did you say bound spirit? Just to check though as im having a mental blank and don't have my books on me, don't bound spirits need to me made from a formulae that effectively creates the spirit itself right? and if so, said spirit is effectively newborn (but not a retard) but may also view the designer of the spirit formulae with a posible parent figure and attach themselves to them in much the same manner as an orphan clinging desperately to the kind and nurturing person who brought it into existence?

.. either that or i'vehad way to much to .. erm.. drink, and i should just give up now.

Bound spirits are simply normal summoned spirits that have had a ritual performed on them to make them stay around until all of their services are exhausted rather than expire at sunrise/sunset.

You are thinking of Ally Spirits in the quoted text above.

Under SR4 rules, you can have up to CHA bound spirits and only 1 unbound spirit at any given time.

[Blade]

I don't think magic is game-breaking, though I've seen magic break a game.

For me, there can't be anything broken in a game with a consistent world. If something is very powerful, there will be things to counter it (for example body armor against bullets). If it can't be countered (for example the easy decryption), then it becomes a part of the game universe and it will shape the world some way that'll make it not so problematic, hence not broken.

But there will still be GM out there to forget about magic counter-measures and magic will break their games.

[Cain]

I don't think magic is game-breaking, though I've seen magic break a game.

For me, there can't be anything broken in a game with a consistent world. If something is very powerful, there will be things to counter it (for example body armor against bullets). If it can't be countered (for example the easy decryption), then it becomes a part of the game universe and it will shape the world some way that'll make it not so problematic, hence not broken.

But there will still be GM out there to forget about magic counter-measures and magic will break their games.

I disagree. Sometimes there are no countermeasures, and it shapes the world in a problematic fashion. Grounding was one example of this.

[Blade]

Then the world can't exist coherently. That's why I specifically said "in a game with a consistent world". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mordinvan]

I argue a) that the spirit deserves the same laws of physics and metaphysics that apply to the PC, b) spirits with LOG 12 are not stupid, and c) the PC should recognize his limits and expect consequences for poking a stick into a nest of killer bees.

If the PC actually abuses the spirit, I might be inclined to agree, however I do not believe that 'burning' edge should be an option to NPC's because there is no logical reason for them not to, to suceede on EVERY potentially dangerous soak role, rendering them invulnerable until they have run out of edge.
Also they have just blown a very large amount of Karma to pull this little trick off, and desirve to get some gain for their troubles. 8 services is really not that much, and if the PC starts pissing the spirit off, its likely going to consider anything asked of it a service. But depending on the tradition of the spirit, it may take different actions on the PC's part to either keep it happy or anger it, or the spirit may simply NOT have those concepts.

Edge only for PCs is cheese of the highest order.

Really, so what do you do to cripple your ability to use edge against PC's then?
If every NPC has it, then every NPC should use it for the reasons stated in the book, like not dying. So if your sniper using a barret shoots a security guard in the head with an AV around and a +4 called shot, then the guard burns edge, resists the damage, and returns fire as he suddenly stopped because he saw a penny on the ground and the bullet merely trimmed his bangs as opposed to penetrating his cortex. Its perfectly legal, and the most logical way for that NPC to spend its edge during this encounter. And as you demand, since it is an option available to PC's it MUST be avaialable to NPC's.

[Shilaleagh]

Bound spirits are simply normal summoned spirits that have had a ritual performed on them to make them stay around until all of their services are exhausted rather than expire at sunrise/sunset.

You are thinking of Ally Spirits in the quoted text above.

Under SR4 rules, you can have up to CHA bound spirits and only 1 unbound spirit at any given time.

Right you are, cheers for the clarification, knew i wasn't quite right.

Just to constructively add to the thread, i *do* believe magic is broken, but to be honest, it's broken the other way. Huh? you say? here's why

Where's our positive TN bonus's for spells that aren't cyber based?
We have tons of negatives, and my mages average TN is 8+ (on a d6), with the only reasonable way to get successes on casts being to throw more dice at it. Being the only spellslinger in my party, i had to ramp the bejeebus out of my shammy just to keep up with the rest of the party. Im slower, much less strength and body, no matrix access, poor firearms skills, poor melee skills. lower reaction, initiative, lower *everything* except direct magic and willpower. The rest of the party are all mundanes, and im hardpressed to keep up with them in full flight. What they can do with a simple press of a finger takes my character twice as long, and requires LOS to boot - unlike indirect fire weapons, smartlinks, drones, or anything else along those lines. So my little shaman, that was created to be a magical monster, finds nearly every action he takes with magic to be extremely difficult, but *every single other member on the team* can do similar things (non magical ofc.) with an avg. TN of 2.
Balanced? yeah, right.

The only thing mages can really do to offset the direct, immediate capabilites of the average sam is too either quicken or sustain a bunch of inc. attrib. spells on themselves before they even poke their head out the door, then pray they get the jump and hope they have LOS. Yes, ritual magic can offset that to some degree, but you still need a sample of the target to be able to target them, and then you have both the massive time commitment as well as a static location you need to defend while your otherwise occupied, neither of which are all that fantastic, and would have been much more easily dealt with if you just let the phys ad gun bunny with richochet take the target down with a single shot, instead of the long winded rigamarole you need to go thru commonly to do the same on a mage (if no direct LOS). Now if you *do* have LOS, the mage can then do soem great things.. but once more, much more easily sorted with a single well placed bullet from the overpowered hand cannons the sams are running around with. Not to mention that that called shot to the head from extreme distance *still* quite commonly has a lower (or equal at max) TN than the F8 powerbolt the mage is trying to cast at em.

But no, magics broken, mages are OP an they get fantastic mileage for the karma expenditure.. lol.

[Cain]

In SR3, centering vs. penalties could make up for that TN difference in a hurry.

[Hagga]

What do you think?

Noandno. If the mage is breaking the game, or anyone else is, the GM is not doing his job. Shadowrun is easy to break.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If the PC actually abuses the spirit, I might be inclined to agree, however I do not believe that 'burning' edge should be an option to NPC's because there is no logical reason for them not to, to suceede on EVERY potentially dangerous soak role, rendering them invulnerable until they have run out of edge.
Also they have just blown a very large amount of Karma to pull this little trick off, and desirve to get some gain for their troubles. 8 services is really not that much, and if the PC starts pissing the spirit off, its likely going to consider anything asked of it a service. But depending on the tradition of the spirit, it may take different actions on the PC's part to either keep it happy or anger it, or the spirit may simply NOT have those concepts.

First... let me just say that 8 services from a Force 16 (or whatever High Force we were talking about) Spirit is HUGE...

Secondly...
Edge use for NPC's is not as clear cut as you want to make it. NPC's are indeed a lot like PC's in that they tend to spend edge just as PC's do... for the many varied and useful applications of edge...

Additionally, a lot of opponents do not have their own edge but Group Edge... again, they use it up rather fast to do such nefarious things as negate a glitch or critical glitch, allow a reroll to avoid getting hit, etc... pretty much what I would do for the majority of my uses of edge... I have never seen a character actually burn edge for a critical success (wishing that it was actually not even allowed, but hey, since it is, all types of characters should be able to take advantage of it), though they could of course do so... I have seen a PC Burn edge to survive certain death, but there are always consequences to this approach in the game (our campaign at least), as I have outlined in an earlier post...

What is SO WRONG about the odd NPC Burning Edge to survive (I am obviously arguing agains the "Unlimited" expenditure of Edge that so many have put forth earlier)... I submit that it will be more common for the NPC's to spend their edge like those us lowly PC's do, and that permanent burning of edge will be rare...

Just my two cents...

Really, so what do you do to cripple your ability to use edge against PC's then?
If every NPC has it, then every NPC should use it for the reasons stated in the book, like not dying. So if your sniper using a barret shoots a security guard in the head with an AV around and a +4 called shot, then the guard burns edge, resists the damage, and returns fire as he suddenly stopped because he saw a penny on the ground and the bullet merely trimmed his bangs as opposed to penetrating his cortex. Its perfectly legal, and the most logical way for that NPC to spend its edge during this encounter. And as you demand, since it is an option available to PC's it MUST be avaialable to NPC's.

I think that you are being specious here... again, If the character (NPC) is an important one and you absolutely MUST keep him available for later plots, then burn the edge and move on, but always make sure that there is a consequence for doing so... such as not purchasing any more edge for this NPC... thus a Finite supply of edge...

If is not an important NPC, let him attempt to beat fate by spending edge for the myriad reasons/effects that can be generated, just like the rest of us... success is its own reward in this regard...

It seams like you are just being difficult, for no real reason...

Thanks for letting me rant a little

My Two Cents

[Mordinvan]

First... let me just say that 8 services from a Force 16 (or whatever High Force we were talking about) Spirit is HUGE...

Yep, and if the spirit demands a service to even interact with the player because they've pissed it off, guess how fast they fly out the window.
It also means the PC would have a magic of atleast 8, which means they should be pretty cool in their own right.

If is not an important NPC, let him attempt to beat fate by spending edge for the myriad reasons/effects that can be generated, just like the rest of us... success is its own reward in this regard...

Because the rules permit the burning of edge by NPC's to negate the damage competely by getting a critial success on the soak roll. There is NO logical reason for them not to do it in a life or death situation. To my knowledge they can a) spend edge to try and avoid the attack, and then burn it to soak the damage if they failed.

It seams like you are just being difficult, for no real reason...

No real reason... ok, interesting definition of "no real reason", but whatever...

[Tunnel Rat]

I'll say it again, plot important/special NPCs burning edge for 'hand of god' survival is fine. NPCs burning edge for critical successes is an abuse of GM power. Period. Is it by the letter legal? Yes. But so is creating your own great dragon or immortal elf with godlike stats and powers, and then have them kill your players. I, for one, would be walking out of the game moments after you answered the question, "Are you serious?"

Make as many statements about how it's legal, and how you think that NPCs should be given the same options as players as you want. It's a matter of fairness.

PCs edge is paid for with karma and build points. They build their character with these points, and the play the game to earn more points. NPCs are pulled from the GM's rear end fully formed. In this case, we're talking about a NPC that will exist for only the moment of summoning (assuming that he isn't summoned). Rather, you should point to the book:

In certain drastic situations, even spending Edge may not be enough.

This would indicate that you are supposed to burn edge only in a drastic situation. Simply tell the player that burning edge is for 'emergency' use only, and not for them whipping up a new friend.

[Cain]

What is SO WRONG about the odd NPC Burning Edge to survive (I am obviously arguing agains the "Unlimited" expenditure of Edge that so many have put forth earlier)... I submit that it will be more common for the NPC's to spend their edge like those us lowly PC's do, and that permanent burning of edge will be rare...

Because even in a limited situation, it takes the fun away from the players. There's no thrill in overcasting a spell, or scoring a critical success on an attack roll, if the other guy is just going to negate it by burning the Edge he didn't pay for.

[Floyd]

This thread has become an attempt to convince Cain that the GM has what-ever right he or she wants to run his or her story the way they want. Likewise, Cain and his supporters are arguing that the game belongs to the players and that what benefits them is what the game is about.

As you can tell by the statements above, I have a bias.

Cain should be able to play his game the way he wants. Period. He plopped down the cash or whatever to get the books, think of the concepts, and put them into the rules. Golden RPG rule # 1:If a rule offends the, pluck it out(sic). Don't like how it works change it.

By that token, good luck finding a GM who will run for you. I'm sure there are plenty out there. But just as you have a right to play as you wish, everyone else also has the same right. As everyone has the right to refuse to play at a table with someone who doesn't share the same Mythos view as them. Golden RPG rule # 2: No GM has to play with any player, and No player has to play with any GM or player.

So, yes, by the rules of the BBB, all of your actions are legal and above board, and I will defend them to the hilt. But bragging about them (and I feel that flouting big numbers is, infact, bragging, even if you vcan back them up) will not get you the respect, I believe you are looking for. And I believe you are looking for respect or else you would have dropped the matter yourself long ago.

Cain. Buddy. Let them go. They'll not come around. They are cut from different cloth. Suffer those arrows of outragous fortune, and be the nobler man. Your big numbers are how you play, have fun. But, let it go. I'm sorry, you're not proving anything.

Meanwhile.....

Gm's run their games to run their games. If you (not necessarily Cain) want to play with a certain set of rules, you will have to run. Otherwise, be prepared to suffer at the hands of another mortal. If GM says, it goes. Book says different, who cares. Agrue long enough, and you'll be asked to leave. I have kicked people out of my game because they did not wish to conform to my vision of the story. Likewise, I have left tables where I couldn't get into the rythm of the game and I was causing a disruption. I like to think of myself as a fair GM, if not a fair man, but when I run a game; I'm running the show.

GM(me): Well, it looks like you dropped the MacGuffin while swimming back to the boat.
Player: I burn an edge to make it an automatic success.
GM(me):Yeah...wow....A near by fish burns edge and it drops.
Player: What!?! Thats retarded!
GM(me): your right....no fish. It drops because I say so. Keep your edge.

If the player argues after that, wasted breath. I need the MacGuffin at the bottom of that lake. The Edge attribute is sometimes called the favor of the gods, but sometimes the gods have plans that are counter to yours. Such is drama.

[Mikado]

Then don't use Escape Certain Death. Burn Edge for a critical success on your soak roll, reducing those 20 hp from the gauss rifle to nothing. It happened in the situation I described: I massively overcast a direct combat spell, scored over eighteen successes thanks to exploding dice, nearly killed myself from the drain, and had it all wiped out when the NPC burned a single point of Edge. He was still up, fighting, and completely uninjured.

Yea, I have not read the rules for "Escape Certain Death" in a while but I don't recall it ever saying that the individual never gets injured... Just that they don't die. What you describe above should have been the N/PC in question takes enough damage to fall unconscious and is out of combat after that. He looks dead so (metagaming aside) everyone else leaves him alone.
If NPC's can't use edge how do you have reoccurring villains? "I thought we killed that guy!?" "And now he has a PAC!"

[Mikado]

Because even in a limited situation, it takes the fun away from the players. There's no thrill in overcasting a spell, or scoring a critical success on an attack roll, if the other guy is just going to negate it by burning the Edge he didn't pay for.

Who said he didn't pay for it? NPC's are made like everyone else. (To some extent)
Most GM's I know make NPC's with BP/Karma in line with the team they are supposed to face. I do in the games I run. Just because it is an NPC does not mean that in the fictional world that is SR that person didn't grow up and find (or have forced on them) their path in life. (other than spirits)