Is magic broken, let's keep it simple Options

[Cain]

What i don't get is, why only 25 people voted yes on the question if Magic is broken, if at least 50 people have voted yes on the question if they have SEEN Magic break a game . .

As others have pointed out, we've seen lots of things break the game. Shadowrun is very breakable. Mundanes can do it just as easily as magic. That doesn't mean the magic system is broken, or the combat section, or the Matrix.

Damage is not an opposed test... it is a result that you have to roll against to take less damage...

That makes it a simple Threshold test, which is eligible for burning Edge.

Look at it this way. Let's say the player is able to roll a critical success without the use of burned Edge. When would you say he earned his flourish: when he soaked 4 boxes of damage, or soaked all of them plus four?

[Mikado]

You don't use Escape Certain Death. You burn Edge for a critical success on the soak roll. For example, you're facing 20 boxes of damage. Through the miracle of exploding 6's, your burned Edge grants you 24 successes, enabling you to take the shot without damage.

And this is where you are wrong.
You can ONLY explode 6's by spending edge. You can only use edge ONCE per test. It does not matter if you burn it or spend it, you only get to do one. If by spending edge you still don't have enough hits to not die you may then burn it to live but the damage test is over and your burning of edge is not to die.

[Draco18s]

And this is where you are wrong.
You can ONLY explode 6's by spending edge. You can only use edge ONCE per test. It does not matter if you burn it or spend it, you only get to do one. If by spending edge you still don't have enough hits to not die you may then burn it to live but the damage test is over and your burning of edge is not to die.

While true, he never said he used edge to get more dice, he said he burned edge to get N successes, which would normally be possible, though unlikely to achieve through the normal application of edge.

[Muspellsheimr]

And this is where you are wrong.
You can ONLY explode 6's by spending edge. You can only use edge ONCE per test. It does not matter if you burn it or spend it, you only get to do one. If by spending edge you still don't have enough hits to not die you may then burn it to live but the damage test is over and your burning of edge is not to die.

Incorrect. You may only use Edge once in any single test. However, the book makes a clear distinction between using & burning Edge - using reduces your available Edge by 1, burning reduces your attribute by 1, & they each have different results.

You can use & burn Edge on a single test. You can burn Edge 4 times on a single test, if you are so inclined.

[Mikado]

Incorrect. You may only use Edge once in any single test. However, the book makes a clear distinction between using & burning Edge - using reduces your available Edge by 1, burning reduces your attribute by 1, & they each have different results.

You can use & burn Edge on a single test. You can burn Edge 4 times on a single test, if you are so inclined.

Spending edge and burning edge is still using edge. But you are free to look at it that way if you want. I guess at the tables I have been at we have a more strict interpretation of the edge rules.

[Muspellsheimr]

A character can only spend Edge points on her own actions; she cannot spend it on
behalf of others (except when engaged in a “teamwork� test, p. 65). No more than
1 point of Edge can be spent on any specific test or action at one time. If you spent
a point of Edge for extra dice and rolled a critical glitch anyway, for example, you
cannot use Edge to negate that critical glitch since you have already applied Edge
to that test.

Burning Edge
In certain drastic situations, even spending Edge may not be enough. A
character can choose to burn a point of Edge—permanently reducing
his Edge attribute by 1—for one of the following effects:

Spending is restricted to once per action. Burning is an entirely separate category, & has no such restriction. You can Spend & Burn Edge on the same test. This is not new to SR4A - it's like this in SR4 as well.

[pbangarth]

Muspellheimr, the quote from SR4A, p. 75 does not say that burning and spending can both be done, it merely says that burning is more effective.

And burning Edge 4 times on the very same test will not get you any more than burning Edge once... you still get only 4+ net successes. "I put the gun on the top shelf" cannot be multiplied... no matter how many times you do it, you can't get higher than the top shelf.

Unless, I suppose this is applied: "If two opposing characters burn Edge in this manner, they cancel each other out." (p. 75) If this is applied, then each opposing character could continue burning Edge points at each other. [Please! I'm not trying to start that other discussion here, too!]

[Muspellsheimr]

Spending Edge & Burning Edge are two, entirely separate applications for the attribute. The restriction for multiple-use is placed only on Spending Edge - go read it yourself, if you do not believe me. And I am well aware burning multiple times on the same test does not net you anything but lost Edge, but it can be done, which was my point.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Spending Edge & Burning Edge are two, entirely separate applications for the attribute. The restriction for multiple-use is placed only on Spending Edge - go read it yourself, if you do not believe me. And I am well aware burning multiple times on the same test does not net you anything but lost Edge, but it can be done, which was my point.

Having read the text, I would read that you may use one or the other at any given time, not both in the same action if the first (spending) did not work... You have a choice... when spending edge is just not enough, you can Burn Edge instead......

QUOTE (SR4A p.75)
Burning Edge
In certain drastic situations, even spending Edge may not be enough. A
character can choose to burn a point of Edge—permanently reducing
his Edge attribute by 1—for one of the following effects:

It may be an interpretation of sentence construction, but there you have it... If you believe that spending Edge would not be enough, then you can Burn Edge... I would rule that you cannot do both within the context of the same test...

Subtle, but within the RAW (After all, Interpreation is in the eye of the beholder)

[suppenhuhn]

It may be an interpretation of sentence construction, but there you have it... If you believe that spending Edge would not be enough, then you can Burn Edge... I would rule that you cannot do both within the context of the same test...

Subtle, but within the RAW (After all, Interpreation is in the eye of the beholder)

To me it reads more like "If spending Edge was not enough, then you can Burn Edge".

[Draco18s]

To me it reads more like "If spending Edge was not enough, then you can Burn Edge".

I read it the same way.

[pbangarth]

I read it the same way.

Well, there you have it. Yet again, it's all in how you read it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yep...

And opinions will always vary...