Is magic broken, let's keep it simple Options

[Socinus]

While this is always true, it is also a cop-out to defend poorly balanced rulesets. Magic is too versatile in Shadowrun, as it allows mages to replace nearly any other role in the game, often with the same basic build. Sure, you can't hack a node with it, but unless you're doing data collection, you probably will never need to hack anything if you have a mage. Need to get somewhere? Movement spirit power. Need something dead? A mage has several damage options, including several that ignore or halve armor. Need to soak damage? A mage wearing decent body armor with the spell stacked on top of it will likely be the match of your average Sam, PLUS they can throw up a physical barrier for extra protection. If they only had a spell to let them walk through walls, they could go on runs by themselves.

Mages are versatile, true, but they are hardly over-powered. In my experience, you cant build an un-killable character even if you seriously fracture the character creation rules. A great challenge simply means you have to be slick about how you handle it. I'd happily match a mage with a mundane.

[JonathanC]

Mages are versatile, true, but they are hardly over-powered. In my experience, you cant build an un-killable character even if you seriously fracture the character creation rules. A great challenge simply means you have to be slick about how you handle it. I'd happily match a mage with a mundane.

You can indeed make an un-killable character, or at least someone close enough that it breaks the game. And there's nothing illegal about it, so unless you want to quibble with your players about making themselves "too competent",you're screwed. At least if they make some kind of Troll tank he'll be a certified moron with no social skills. You can make a reasonably indestructible mage (I've seen my players do it) and still be fairly competent in other ways as well.

No other "specialty" is as generally useful as magic. As a result, nobody I know who understands the rules of SR4 willingly plays anything that isn't a mage unless they're out on a lark.

[Cain]

This is plain scary. But nothing Gauss weaponry can't take care off. I hope.

That spirit must have had some sucker rolls, really...

Gauss Weaponry tends to bounce off. As for sucker rolls, whenever I GM, I will critically botch at least one roll per session.

No other "specialty" is as generally useful as magic. As a result, nobody I know who understands the rules of SR4 willingly plays anything that isn't a mage unless they're out on a lark.

I do. And I have the game-breaking mundane to prove it. The mods have banned me from discussing the exact methods and stories involved, so you're going to have to search them out on your own; however, the facts are clear. Mundanes can break the game just as easily as anyone else.

[Draco18s]

You can indeed make an un-killable character, or at least someone close enough that it breaks the game.

See Bobson's 800BP character. Troll with 25 armor and 17 Body? 14 Body? Something along those lines. The only thing that scares him are the (naval mounted) Ares Gaus Cannons. 18P damage with AP -10 (all armor except Smart Armor is halved first). It still takes 3 shots to bring him down.

[Muspellsheimr]

Gauss Weaponry tends to bounce off. As for sucker rolls, whenever I GM, I will critically botch at least one roll per session.

9P Base vs. 12 Hardened Armor. With a 4-called-shot, all you need to do is hit to reduce the spirit to at least half health, on average. Yes, if you are dumbass & try to take on the spirit face-to-face, this is going to be difficult, but not impossible. Otherwise, that spirit is dead very fast.

[Muspellsheimr]

See Bobson's 800BP character. Troll with 25 armor and 17 Body? 14 Body? Something along those lines. The only thing that scares him are the (naval mounted) Ares Gaus Cannons. 18P damage with AP -10 (all armor except Smart Armor is halved first). It still takes 3 shots to bring him down.

That is nothing. I can create a 400-BP character with minimum 15 Body & armor in the 30-40 range. This character is mundane.

[Socinus]

I still maintain that if you have an character that's hard to kill, your only real problem is a lack of creativity.

That's part of why I enjoy games like Shadowrun, even if you're some sort of combat behemoth you can still get laid flat by someone who out-foxed you.

I wish there was a way for us to meet and play a game, I'm more than happy to back up my claims.

[JonathanC]

I still maintain that if you have an character that's hard to kill, your only real problem is a lack of creativity.

That's part of why I enjoy games like Shadowrun, even if you're some sort of combat behemoth you can still get laid flat by someone who out-foxed you.

I wish there was a way for us to meet and play a game, I'm more than happy to back up my claims.

You're welcome to come out to the Bay Area. I can accept that it is possible to have game breaking mundanes, but to say that it is equally easy to make them as it is to make and play a game-breaking magician is just ridiculous, and obviously untrue. I'm far from the first person to point out how ridiculously skewed the system is towards magic. They've continually expanded what magic can do with each edition, but have done little to nothing in the way of changing mundane abilities. Furthermore, since magicians can take cyber/nano/bio/whatever, but mundantes can never use any sort of magical object, things never WILL be balanced.

[Zurai]

but have done little to nothing in the way of changing mundane abilities.

Wireless.

Next silly absolute statement?

[Draco18s]

That is nothing. I can create a 400-BP character with minimum 15 Body & armor in the 30-40 range. This character is mundane.

I doubt that armor level, I really do.

[Socinus]

You're welcome to come out to the Bay Area. I can accept that it is possible to have game breaking mundanes, but to say that it is equally easy to make them as it is to make and play a game-breaking magician is just ridiculous, and obviously untrue. I'm far from the first person to point out how ridiculously skewed the system is towards magic. They've continually expanded what magic can do with each edition, but have done little to nothing in the way of changing mundane abilities. Furthermore, since magicians can take cyber/nano/bio/whatever, but mundantes can never use any sort of magical object, things never WILL be balanced.

Im not saying you can easily make game breaking mundanes, I'm saying I don't think magic is as powerful as all that and I don't think its that unbalanced. Magic is certainly far less subtle and requires much less creativity (generally) to produce results but I don't think it has such overbalanced advantages.

I still maintain that if you've got a character that's breaking the game, the problem is with your GM, not your character. If your GM cant adapt and change gameplay to make things a little tougher on that character but still keep the game fun, then maybe you should find a new GM.

I believe you CAN make a character that will break the game if you play strictly by the book and that its easier to do that with magic. However I think even the least experienced person here knows that NO ONE plays 100% by the book.

[Muspellsheimr]

20 Armor from cyber-limbs. 6 Armor from FFBA. 6 Armor from Urban Explorer Jumpsuit. 1 Natural Armor from Dermal Deposites. We are already at 33, and if I remember correctly, we still have one, maybe two Restricted Gear qualities available, if you want to go with SWAT instead of Jumsuit.

Body would be a minimum of 10; I would need to double check, but I am fairly certain the Availability/Slots on the limbs can still bring it up to 15+.


Edit: Apparently Armor Availability for limbs is higher than I thought, so reduce it to 10 from limbs. That still puts you in mid to high 20's during character generation - and you can still tack on PPP & Shield.

[Draco18s]

20 Armor from cyber-limbs.

Ah ha, there's the silly twinkyness I was missing. I still think it's bizarre that cyberlimb armor works the way it does.

[Muspellsheimr]

Yes. It should average, like every other cyberlimb stat, but it does not - it stacks. It also stacks, for some reason, with natural armor, even if you have all limbs, torso, & skull replaced.

[Medicineman]

I Think a genetically optimized,surged,extraordinary Troll with a maxed CON of 13 with a suprathyroid gland ,Cyber Torso & Skull(F.E. or Dermal Plating) & Titanbonelacing can Put on the heaviest Military Armor ,Pick Up a Shield (or if Munchkin 2 Shields)
for a CON of 14(+3) and Armor of 10/10+18/15+6/4(or 12/8) for a Total of 34/29(40/33)
But this has allready been discussed here some Times (IIRC)

JahtaHey
Medicineman

[pbangarth]

I don't believe magic is broken, but I saw, in fact participated in a game in which magic broke it because it was poorly written with the expectation that no one would perceive a particular threat.

It was a Virtual Seattle game (missions before Missions) at Gencon called Culture Shock. It took characters out of the city into the wild, where their urban skills were not über skills. The first encounter was in a deserted town, occupied by a mother piasma and her cubs, during a mana storm. The piasma was supposed to surprise the party and do nasty things to their vehicle, if not the characters too. The rest of the adventure was predicated upon the team being on foot, and more vulnerable. And there were repercussions for damaging the bears.

Our party had a rigger with an off-road-capable vehicle, and four Awakened characters able to project astrally. We stopped before the abandoned town and all four scouted it astrally. Come on... an abandoned town, in a storm? The background count made things difficult, but one of them noticed the cubs. Where there are cubs there is a mother, so we skirted their location widely, thanks to the keen driving skills of the rigger. The rest of the adventure was a cakewalk. Blood-sucking flying thingies, that couldn't get through the armour. Hellhounds that couldn't catch us. And bear-loving rangers who were helpful to people who didn't hurt the piasma or her cubs. The secret facility in the woods at the end of it all was a bit of a challenge.

The only reason it was easy for us is that we had enough magical surveillance to overcome what was though to be impenetrable interference. Every other team that went through this had real troubles with the bear, and then other stuff later.

I ran a couple of rounds of this mission as GM, and had fun with the piasma flipping vehicles to get at the 'soft underbelly'. Oh yeah, and one PC met the rangers with a bear paw hung around his neck. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lick.gif)

[Cain]

I believe you CAN make a character that will break the game if you play strictly by the book and that its easier to do that with magic.

Not really. Edge 8 + any competent mundane build = game-breaker. No need to go mucking about with magical skills, spells, or spirits. And you can't have a viable mage build with an Edge of 8; I've tried.

Like I said, I've been banned from discussing the specifics; but let's just say that if you want to see some incredible things, you just need a high Edge to pull it off.

[darthmord]

Simple solution to that high force spirit... Mana Static. Any decent mage will be able to cast it with a good Force. It's a 1 for 1 reduction in the spirit, especially if said spirit has reason to stay in the area of the effect (tasked with defeating a target and the target stays in the AOE).

True, it's not a mundane solution but still. It's quite effective, can be cast by a low end mage, and makes a powerful spirit much easier for mundanes to deal with.

Come to think of it... make a Sustained version of that spell and it gets downright obnoxious, especially if you make a sustaining focus that can hold it from within the AOE. High enough force all around and the spell pretty much ensures magical security from all but the most dangerous of threats. But it would neuter you / your group's magical abilities within the field.

[knasser]

Not really. Edge 8 + any competent mundane build = game-breaker. No need to go mucking about with magical skills, spells, or spirits. And you can't have a viable mage build with an Edge of 8; I've tried.

Like I said, I've been banned from discussing the specifics; but let's just say that if you want to see some incredible things, you just need a high Edge to pull it off.

The reason you were banned from discussing it was because you would turn every single thread you posted in into an eight page nuclear-scale flamewar in which the entire membership of Dumpshock told you your bizarre intepretation of the Edge rules was wrong and you would never, ever, answer the points put to you. And this is you "not discussing it", is it?

@Malicant: The reason Cain's character allegedly had a Force 16 spirit (if this is true) is because he doesn't use the same rules that everybody else uses. It would not happen in any other game.

[pbangarth]

The reason you were banned from discussing it ...

You had to bite, didn't you?

[knasser]

You had to bite, didn't you?

It's either that or endless little "I'm not allowed to say this but..." comments that present personal rules warping as facts. I'm not much in favour of banning topics, but I think anyone interested should go back and read any of the locked threads on this before they decide they actually have something new to add. (I count two locked threads at 21 and 14 pages each, along with two that simply expired in exhaustion and disbelief at 6 and 10 pages). I don't know how many other threads were damaged in the Cain vs. Reality wars, but I have no wish to see it all sneak back up again. If Cain is going to go around posting little comments about how Edge can be used to achieve X when that's factually incorrect, then that's exactly where we'll end up again.

[pbangarth]

While writing my dissertation, I have taken part-time work substitute teaching in a middle school. I have had occasion to work with children who suffer from Oppositional Defiant Disorder ( see Link for description and management).

One of the key strategies suggested for managing this disorder is to refuse to be engaged in the arguments and posturing. If a Dumpshock member is exhibiting behaviour you perceive as oppositional and obstinately illogical, you may wish to try some of the suggested strategies. They work even for those not diagnosed as ODD.

[Malachi]

... the Cain vs. Reality wars...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

As an aside, I should point out that the Edge sections have been changed in SR4A. The Hand of God rule now states that the character should not escape without consequences and should be "out of action" for the rest of the adventure. The Long Shot Test now suggests that Edge be reduced by 1 for every 3 points the modifiers are below the character's DP.

EDIT: Oh, and there is now a line in the Data Search Threshold table that listed "Protected or Secret" information have a Data Search Threshold of "N/A." (As that was one of Cain's other "beefs")

[darthmord]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

As an aside, I should point out that the Edge sections have been changed in SR4A. The Hand of God rule now states that the character should not escape without consequences and should be "out of action" for the rest of the adventure. The Long Shot Test now suggests that Edge be reduced by 1 for every 3 points the modifiers are below the character's DP.

EDIT: Oh, and there is now a line in the Data Search Threshold table that listed "Protected or Secret" information have a Data Search Threshold of "N/A." (As that was one of Cain's other "beefs")

So in other words, some of what he was voicing concern over had merit? Isn't that why we give feedback and ask questions?

[DireRadiant]

It's actually disappointing the rules got extended to make explicit the conclusion that there are simply somethings that can't be discovered with a Data Search. I would much rather have more new material and other fun items in the book then something countering the argument "the data search table doesn't say I can't find it if I look long enough so I can!"

The same applies to the Edge Long Shot scenario. If you allow Edge for everything then don't be surprised if everything being Edge and all Edge. Which isn't as rich with choices. If you take that path and end up somewhere you don't like, then don't take that path.

I'd much rather have gotten more new material.