Spirits, My mage is driving me mad Options

[crazyconscript]

But then the critter is dual-natured, so they are hitting an astral body with their astral body at the same time as they hit the material world with their meat. To me that seems like it would bypass "normal" weapons there as long as it was physically part of the critter.
Then again, reading through this has made me think of those with astral perception-and thus become dual natured. So maybe it wouldnt work that way, since i wouldnt allow a mundane with the astral sight knack to bypass the immunity with their fists.
I really need to go think about this a bit more

[Werewindlefr]

Has there been a "word of god/Synner" about Stun damage against spirit? I would be surprised that they take any - they're not living creatures to begin with. Do they even have a stun condition monitor?
I would think they work like constructs or undead in D&D...

[Draco18s]

By the RAW (SR4 not sure if they changed/clarified in SR4A), yes. Look up killing hands(P188). Also look up Astral Combat(p.184). You need Astral Combat to affect a fully astral entity. As written, the Ghoul in the BBB would at best be annoyed by a Force 1 spirit from the astral, but without the skill Astral Combat they couldn't do crap about it.

I didn't read any farther than about here. Then I laughed.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Has there been a "word of god/Synner" about Stun damage against spirit? I would be surprised that they take any - they're not living creatures to begin with. Do they even have a stun condition monitor?
I would think they work like constructs or undead in D&D...

Yes, it's flat out stated in Street Magic that spirits have both a stun and physical track, and are disrupted if either track is filled. The tricky bit is that most spirits have a physical track that is a different size when materialized. IIRC, in the anniversary edition, they finally get around to saying that, yes, spirits with the innate spell power take drain too (but always stun, since they now officially can't overcast.)

[Draco18s]

Just thought I'd pop in and say that it's stupid to assume that ghouls (and other dual natured beings) don't have Astral Combat.

The critter entry on dragons doesn't give them Unarmed Combat either, I guess they have to default with THEIR BLOODY CLAWS.

[HappyDaze]

And Water Spirits don't have Swimming even with a listed swim speed...

[Mäx]

Their position - and one I agree with - is that spirits are intended to be a tool of the magician. Deliberately screwing with that is just plain old dickery.

NO it's not, as spirits aren't tolls their sentiend beings and should act as such.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

And Water Spirits don't have Swimming even with a listed swim speed...

All spirits have 3-d movement at the listed speed...it's just that if they have "running" "flying" or "swimming" skills, they can elect to use the sprinting rules for that type of movement.

[HappyDaze]

NO it's not, as spirits aren't tolls their sentiend beings and should act as such.

That's one view. Some traditions have different views. The same applies to Sprites, btw.

Besides, just being sentient doesn't mean that the spirit can't be fanatically loyal to the summoner. There doesn't need to be any 'negotiating' with the spirit - that's handled through the Conjuration skills used for summoning and binding. Simply put, the metahuman social skills just don't apply the same way - these are alien beings. If the summoner rolls well, the spirit is happy, why the fuck would the spirit use Edge to resist what is, for it, a perfectly natural state (being summoned and/or bound by a magician)? Only if the GM assigns it a metahuman aversion to service - by being a dick. Free spirits are an exception, but then most spirits don't become Free even when given the oppoirtunity - because their natural state of sevitude is just fine for them.

[HappyDaze]

All spirits have 3-d movement at the listed speed...it's just that if they have "running" "flying" or "swimming" skills, they can elect to use the sprinting rules for that type of movement.

And it doens't seem odd that Water spirits can't do this while swimming?

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

*shrug* not horribly so - they get the movement power, so swim-sprinting on top of it seems a bit excessive.

Air spirits potentially have to at least compete with jets and helicopters, after all, but boats and subs really don't relatively move all that fast.

[Draco18s]

[quote name='HappyDaze' date='Mar 25 2009, 03:33 PM' post='787748'If the summoner rolls well, the spirit is happy, why the fuck would the spirit use Edge to resist what is, for it, a perfectly natural state (being summoned and/or bound by a magician)? Only if the GM assigns it a metahuman aversion to service - by being a dick. Free spirits are an exception, but then most spirits don't become Free even when given the oppoirtunity - because their natural state of sevitude is just fine for them.
[/quote]

Servitude isn't the natural state for spirits, not really. What it is is that they allow themselves to be summoned much the same way that ShadowRunners get hired by Johnsons: spirits get "paid" in mana (that's why the mage takes drain: the spirit sucking out its payment) so that it can grow larger and becomes a Force N+1 sometime in the future.

Spirits wouldn't resist summon/bind with Edge anymore than the PCs should be using edge on Diplomacy rolls to get more money: there's a point at which the Johnson says, "nope, not paying you that much, scram." For a spirit it's basically "I'd like N mana to offer you my services" and the mage diplomacies him down. If the spirit wins the contest it's akin to the spirit going, "You can't offer me enough for the jobs you'll be having me do" (high force spirits will basically be looking down on the mage going, "Puny mortal").

[TeOdio]

Looking at the topic, and I realize we got away from it a bit, so I'm gonna try and steer us back. The original post had a GM that was having trouble dealing with spirits in their game. Determining whether or not the ghoul can attack back or not won't help him much if the GM decides that the opposition next time should be a dozen or so gang bangers without magical support.
To clarify my position a bit, I have no problem with spirits / sprites / drones / agents etc in my game. I have enough experience to realize just how powerful that higher force spirits can be, so I make them a bit riskier to summon / bind them. A mage with time to prepare usually doesn't have to worry about it anyway (mine usually use down time to do it, resting between summonings / bindings to rest off the drain).
One other bit of advice I can give is to not overlook attacks of will from Street Magic.
Spirits, even bound ones can be difficult to manage (if GM's allow it) applying a -2 dice modifier to the mage as if they were sustaining spells.
If in the end the spirits are still running amok and you find they are ruining the fun of the other players and yourself, just have a talk with the player and see if they are opposed to toning them down a bit, or using them for utility instead (like extra dice, sustaining spells, etc). If that would be "ruining" his or her fun, try creating a story out of it. You could spread rumors in the magical community of a powerful free spirit taking his vengeance out on those that enslave it's kind. Viola, take the "problem", and create a run out of it.
Just some more ideas.

[HappyDaze]

Servitude isn't the natural state for spirits, not really.

We'll have to disagree. However, do note that summoned/bound spirits are the default type addressed in the rules and fluff and that Free spirits are noted as an exception to the norm for spirits. This hints towards my position.

[Draco18s]

Clearly then, spirits living on their home plane are not in their natural state.

[HappyDaze]

Sure they are. However there they are doing whatever alien metaplanar things that they do. And it really doesn't matter at all since those places are rarely the focus of Shadowrun aside from the odd astral quest here and there. When in the 'regular' astral and in the material world, their natural state is to be in servitude to magicians.

[TeOdio]

When in the 'regular' astral and in the material world, their natural state is to be in servitude to magicians.

Adding to the tangent, but I like this quote, kinda sounds like a MCT Thaumaturge giving his dissertation to newly minted Company Wage Mages. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[crazyconscript]

And back to how ghouls and other dual-natureds would deal with spirits...
I have found a reason that ghouls should be able to affect spirits. I was looking at the entry for the dracoform in the runners companion and this is what it says:

As dual natured beings in dracoform, characters can use their
Physical attributes and Unarmed Combat skills in conjunction with
their Natural Weapon attacks on both the astral and physical planes

Ghouls=Dual natured + Natural weapon=true
So since spirits are also dual natured when manifesting, i dont think they would get their immunity (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

And back to how ghouls and other dual-natureds would deal with spirits...
I have found a reason that ghouls should be able to affect spirits. I was looking at the entry for the dracoform in the runners companion and this is what it says:

Ghouls=Dual natured + Natural weapon=true
So since spirits are also dual natured when manifesting, i dont think they would get their immunity (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I believe I said something to that point a page or two ago.... And if I didn't I wanted to say that a page or two ago.

To borrow a term from the British, "Spot-on."

[crazyconscript]

You might have....i just got my head confused as the thread went on and i now know what i think again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ICPiK]

astral perceiving creatures to take him down or more spirits yourself. Or just try some interupts tie him up keep him busy.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Keeping the mage in my group balanced with the mundanes has had its challenges. the one that is vexing me most right now is the spirit summoning. heading into the basement of an abandoned warehouse full of ghouls, the mage stops, summons a force 6 earth elemental, and says"go kill all the ghouls in here". now, the ghouls are running and hiding and trying to ambush the other characters, but they have no chance against this spirit. this is pretty much the scenario everytime we have an encounter. any thoughts?

You know, we do not generally have this issue in our games... and here is why...

For those ubiquitous spirits (Force 3 or less) we generally go about our summoning as normal... The Mage/Shaman characters summon their 1 Unbound spirit for the encounter and play continues as normal... Now, we have found that spirits of Force 3 or less are very useful, but are not overly powerful, and we tend to only have 1 or 2 Mage characters at any given time... so 2 spirits "Unbound" on the board max for our side...

Here is the kicker though...anytime (whether immediate or outside of combat) we attempt to summon spirits of higher Force, the GM allows the Spirit to expend on of its Edge POints... Perfectly within his right to do so, as these tend to be the more powerful spirits, and are somewhat harder to control... On occassion one of the mages even attempts to summon one as powerful as Force 6 or More (VERY RARE INDEED)... After the Mage attempted to summon the Force 5 Spirit of Man (Who immediately proceeded to resist the summonin, as normal), well... Lets Just say the summoning was unsuccessful and the Mage had to soak 20 Boxes of Stun (Magic rating was a 6, the spirit succeeded with 10 successes to resist, and the mage netted a measly -4 Net for the summoning)... After going almost unconscious and when he took the remaining 8 points of damage, well, everyone else understood why you do these things outside of combat...

Now, on occassion, we have had to do such things in combat due to the opposition that we faced, and they became some of the most exciting occurrences in the game, resulting in great stories that we still talk about from time to time (like when the Necromancer was eaten by the Ghouls)... But they are exceptions to the rule, not the standard response by our Spellcasters.

With all of the Mages that filter through our campaign over the years, we have yet to actually have a "problem" with mages summoning powerful spirits...

Kudos, BTW, to TeOdio forall the awesome crunchy bits regarding the campaign...

My Two Cents

[kzt]

Solutions to game mechanics issues via changing the underlying game rules are fairly easy to come up with. Somehow I fail to see how this suggests that the game rules or the mechanics are not broken.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Solutions to game mechanics issues via changing the underlying game rules are fairly easy to come up with. Somehow I fail to see how this suggests that the game rules or the mechanics are not broken.

Exactly what underlying rules have been changed?

Roll Summoning + Magic vs. the Spirit's Force (Either of which can now add Edge)... Summoning Drain to the Summoner is equal to Spirits Hitsx2
If summoner attains more net hits than the spirit, it is summoned and owes the summoner Net Hits in Services...

Pretty straight forward to me... and note... No change to the RAW 9See pages 179 - 180 of the BBB)

[Warlordtheft]

I may keep that in mind if it ever pops up again. To be fair, the player character did a good job of roleplaying with the spirit; he was unfailingly polite in his interactions with his spirits, and didn't do anything close to mistreating them. Having the spirit rebel would be seriously unfair, but having other magical beings show up to interact with it would be fair game.

Another option was have it go free, if the PC went unconcious due to deadly damage. It could still be freindly to the PC and may even become a contact, it just won't be at his beck and call.