[SR4] - maximum dice Options

[Machiavelli]

I remember a topic where there was a discussion how "easy" it would be to get more or up to 20 dice for e.g. the firearms skill. I tried to find it but the search window didn´t accepted my search-terms. I didn´t noticed how the topic ended, but up to my last look in the basic shadowrun-book, I would say that no human character could ever get more than 19 dice in anything. Your attributes are limited to 9, no matter how much cyber- or bioware you have. Skills are limited to 9 dice (10 with the aptitide-quality) also no matter from which source the additional dice are from. So how did they justify these "20+ dice"? Even a specialisation shouldn´t be more than "additional dice", so a skill at 6 and an specialization would end in 8 dices (already one point below the absoulute max). Or did I really miss something?

And another question: the attribute maximum is 1 1/2 times your max attribut (let´s stay with humans) which means 9. But is i have e.g. an attribute at 4, can i put a lot of cyber and other stuff in to reach 9 or do i have to raise the attribute to 6 to reach the 9 and 6 would be the max for an attribute of 4?

[Draco18s]

There are bonuses to attributes and skills (capped at 9) and there are bonuses to dice pools (uncapped).

Specilizations are in the latter. Some cyberware is the latter as well.

[ElFenrir]

You can, in theory, have an attribute of 1(9) if there was cyber that gave +8 to a stat.

As for getting 20+ firearms dice?

-Bio adept. Elven. Agility of 6(10) with Muscle Toner(Restricted Gear.) Dice=10. Still have 5 essence, and thus 5 magic if magic is maxed.
-Aptitude: Pistols. Specialization: Semi-Automatics. (Or firearms of choice.) 7(+2) dice. 9 dice. Total: 19.
-+3 Improved Ability: Pistols. +3 dice. Total: 22.
-Smartlink. +2 dice. Total: 24.


That's only one way. Add SURGE in there(Metagenic Improvement: Agility), for an elven max agility of 8(12) for two more dice, or 26.

I mean, IMO, it's not worth the diminishing returns of cost vs. dice, but if you want to, that's how to do it.

[Rasumichin]

I didn´t noticed how the topic ended, but up to my last look in the basic shadowrun-book, I would say that no human character could ever get more than 19 dice in anything.

Sticking just to the basic book, it's difficult to get more than 19 dice, but if you take additional rulebooks into account, it's actually pretty easy.
Around 20 dice should be possible in anything, various physical and Logic-based skills can be pumped up into the 30s or sometimes even 40s, for social skills, around 50 dice are possible (no, i'm not kidding and yes, i mean legally and entirely by the rules).

Besides, being human is kinda counterproductive to minmaxing, unfortunately, it's about the worst metatype in the BBB.

Your attributes are limited to 9, no matter how much cyber- or bioware you have. Skills are limited to 9 dice (10 with the aptitide-quality) also no matter from which source the additional dice are from. So how did they justify these "20+ dice"? Even a specialisation shouldn´t be more than "additional dice", so a skill at 6 and an specialization would end in 8 dices (already one point below the absoulute max). Or did I really miss something?

As Draco18s pointed out, you're wrong on the dice pool bonusses.
Directly increasing your rating is capped (to 1 1/2 your racial maximum for attributes and 1 1/2 of your current skill for skills), but bonus dice do not figure into that equation, you can pile as many of them on top of your dice pool as you can afford.

Most enhancements to skills do count as bonus dice, so the hardcap will very rarely be a concern.
Except for attributes, it will matter mostly for adepts, as only Increased Ability and Reflex Recorder (along with some rather obscure qualities from Runner's Companion) provide a direct increase of the skill rating itself.
Anything else does not add to the skill, but either to the attribute or it is an uncapped DP bonus.
Additionally, there are various ways of raising your attribute maximums (posession, becoming a cyberzombie and so on).


If you want to get a high DP for firearms using only the basic rules, choose elf as metatype, get a specialization and a smartlink, some Muscle Toner and the Increased Ability adept power or probably the Enhance Aim spell (which can provide way more bonus dice if you are a capable caster), or both.
I'd avoid Exceptional Attribute, i regard it as too costly and don't like overspecialization.
Same goes for Talented to a lesser extend.

If you also have Augmentation, you can probably forget about the Muscle Toner and go for Customized Cyberlimbs, at least if you want to focus on guns you can fire single-handedly.
Genetic Optimization may be worth looking into if you want to increase your Agility maximum, probably also Synch geneware.
If you want to go apeshit crazy, go for the option of becoming a cyberzombie or cyborg (in the latter case, you may want to take a look at Unwired to always get 5 Initiative Passes).

If you have Street Magic, spirit posession becomes interesting, as well as the Attunement metamagic, probably also Adept Centering.

From Runner's Companion, the SURGE quality Metagenetic Improvement may be interesting, though i'd choose Genetic Optimization first.
The two are cumulative, however.
Seal Shapeshifters are also a great basis for gunbunnies, but you'll have to boost your Agility by entirely magical means, as all ware (even if you can get and afford deltaware) will only benefit you in animal form and seals are...kinda bad at firing guns, i think.
If you don't like seals (which would probably indicate that you are a cruel and evil person, though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ), you could become an eastern drake instead, on top of being an elf.
Drakes are kinda lame IMHO, but the eastern variety does not only appear slightly less dumb to me, but gets a nice Agility bonus and has opposoble thumbs, so you can fire a railgun in dragon form...oh, you'd want to stick to magical augmentations here, too, as this time, you don't benefit from ware when in dragon form.

Surprisingly, Arsenal offers very little in the way of improving firearm accuracy for a book that contains so many guns.
There's tracer rounds, though, which are interesting if you don't use a smartlink for whatever reason.
Moreover, there's some ways to decrease range penalties, plus some really nifty, big-ass guns (who would've thought?).

That should be about all you can do to improve your firearms skills.
I haven't discusses stuff liek Reflex Recorders and the Increase Agility spell (both from the BBB), as they are pretty much self-explanatory, i think.
I've also not really gone into how to cheese out your DPs as a cyborg, i'll leave that to the matrix and rigging experts here.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Please keep in mind, however, that the maximum MEAT Initiative passes you can ever aspire to (currently ) is 4... If you are in the matrix.. you can indeed get up to 5 IP.

[Rasumichin]

Please keep in mind, however, that the maximum MEAT Initiative passes you can ever aspire to (currently ) is 4... If you are in the matrix.. you can indeed get up to 5 IP.

Jarheads always use their matrix initiative, as they are considered to rig their body as a drone.
So yes, they can get 5 IP in physical combat, as could a jumped-in drone rigger with the proper ware and equipment.

[Stahlseele]

you can have up to 50 dice in climbing stuff, shooting stuff, hitting stuff, shmoozing stuff, thinking stuff, magicing stuff, rssisting stuff, according to certain min/mx excercise examples on these very boards.
but you can never ever have that kind of dice in more than one field. you can, on the other hand, pretty reliably get 20+ dice in a pretty big skill range, with the correct options built in . .
if i remember correctly, you can get agility maxed at 15 right now. so that means all agility linked skills start out with 16 dice at skill level 1 . . and there's other attributes that can be pushed to the maximum like that too.

[Rasumichin]

you can have up to 50 dice in climbing stuff, shooting stuff, hitting stuff, shmoozing stuff, thinking stuff, magicing stuff, rssisting stuff, according to certain min/mx excercise examples on these very boards.
but you can never ever have that kind of dice in more than one field. you can, on the other hand, pretty reliably get 20+ dice in a pretty big skill range, with the correct options built in . .
if i remember correctly, you can get agility maxed at 15 right now. so that means all agility linked skills start out with 16 dice at skill level 1 . . and there's other attributes that can be pushed to the maximum like that too.

Hm...

Metatype Elf, Exceptional Attribute, Metagenetic Improvement, Genetic Optimization...that's 10 (15) to begin.
Now turn that elf into a cyberzombie with Essence -6 and it rises to 16 (24).
For Agility alone.
NOT counting in the skill itself, any bonus dice or -god forbid- use of Edge (30+ dice using the rule of exploding 6es is a little bit too much SR3 for my taste^^).

Okay, you have to have pointy ears and blow 30 points of your positive qualities and be a particularly deranged case of cybermantic perversion to pull that one off, but defaulting for 23 dice when using any Agility-linked skill may just be worth becoming a dandelion-munching and overly gifted...thing that insults the very basic laws of the universe with every step it makes.

Of course, using magic can theoretically earn you even bigger pools than this, if you apply it on a level that is comparably over the top.
Posession by a Force 12 spirit would bring an elf with a softmaxed AGI attribute and simple lvl. 2 muscle toners available at chargen to AGI 20, and if it was a guardian spirit, he may as well have any weapons skill at 12...but then, if you are on a level where you can conjure Force 12 spirits without letting your brain drip out your ears, you may worry about other things than mundane firearms.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Jarheads always use their matrix initiative, as they are considered to rig their body as a drone.
So yes, they can get 5 IP in physical combat, as could a jumped-in drone rigger with the proper ware and equipment.

Never though of it that way... but you are probably right... I will have to remember that when I am rigging...
Thanks

[Stahlseele]

Hm...

Metatype Elf, Exceptional Attribute, Metagenetic Improvement, Genetic Optimization...that's 10 (15) to begin.
Now turn that elf into a cyberzombie with Essence -6 and it rises to 16 (24).
For Agility alone.
NOT counting in the skill itself, any bonus dice or -god forbid- use of Edge (30+ dice using the rule of exploding 6es is a little bit too much SR3 for my taste^^).

Okay, you have to have pointy ears and blow 30 points of your positive qualities and be a particularly deranged case of cybermantic perversion to pull that one off, but defaulting for 23 dice when using any Agility-linked skill may just be worth becoming a dandelion-munching and overly gifted...thing that insults the very basic laws of the universe with every step it makes.

Of course, using magic can theoretically earn you even bigger pools than this, if you apply it on a level that is comparably over the top.
Posession by a Force 12 spirit would bring an elf with a softmaxed AGI attribute and simple lvl. 2 muscle toners available at chargen to AGI 20, and if it was a guardian spirit, he may as well have any weapons skill at 12...but then, if you are on a level where you can conjure Force 12 spirits without letting your brain drip out your ears, you may worry about other things than mundane firearms.

well, if you are an elf, that is not so much better than being a cyberzombie in my eyes anyway ^^
but get those attributes high and put in MBW2 on Beta or something like that, and you have skillwires so you can have your cake AND eat it too . .

[Gawdzilla]

In short, it is because there are things that give you extra dice for rolls without actually increasing the rating of a skill or attribute.

The Adept Power "Improved Ability" is a good example of this.
The text specifically states: "Improved Ability does not actually improve a skill's rating, it only provides additional dice for tests involving the skill", which keeps it from violating the max skill rating rule. It further states that "You cannot have more additional dice than your base skill rating", essentially this means you can double your skill.

So:
AGI 9 + Automatics 6 + Improved Ability (Automatics) 6 = 21 dice, and that is without even leaving the core book.
Add in Smartgun (+2), Skill Specialization (+2), and, say, a Customized Grip (+1) and you're at 26 dice for shooting, and that's being a human without even any real exotic options or positive qualities.

[Matsci]

In short, it is because there are things that give you extra dice for rolls without actually increasing the rating of a skill or attribute.

The Adept Power "Improved Ability" is a good example of this.
The text specifically states: "Improved Ability does not actually improve a skill's rating, it only provides additional dice for tests involving the skill", which keeps it from violating the max skill rating rule. It further states that "You cannot have more additional dice than your base skill rating", essentially this means you can double your skill.

So:
AGI 9 + Automatics 6 + Improved Ability (Automatics) 6 = 21 dice, and that is without even leaving the core book.
Add in Smartgun (+2), Skill Specialization (+2), and, say, a Customized Grip (+1) and you're at 26 dice for shooting, and that's being a human without even any real exotic options or positive qualities.

Unless you look at the Errata.

[Muspellsheimr]

Let us go with Mundane Human, BBB-Only. For this I am disregarding character generation limits; only the Muscle Toner is out-of-bounds, and is easily obtained after a few weeks of play anyways.


Agility: 6 (9)

Pistols: 6 (7)
- - Semi-Automatic Specialization

Smartlink, Muscle Toner 3, Reflex Recorder (Pistols)

Pistols (Semi-Automatics): 23 Dice (Take Aim x3)



Now, lets make him min-maxed (still BBB-only)

Elven Adept

Agility 8 (12)
Pistols 7 (10)
- - Semi-Automatics

Smartlink, Muscle Toner 4
Aptitude (Pistols), Exceptional Attribute (Agility)
Improved Ability 3 (Pistols)

Pistols (Semi-Automatic): 31 Dice (Take Aim x5)

[Stahlseele]

was the ultimate mundane climber pre or post aug?
and the first pornomancer?
or the first brick built?

[hobgoblin]

Jarheads always use their matrix initiative, as they are considered to rig their body as a drone.
So yes, they can get 5 IP in physical combat, as could a jumped-in drone rigger with the proper ware and equipment.

ah yes, jarheads.

would love some more official details on those, beyond whats in augmentation.

specifically, i would have loved some detail on the use of cyberlimb mods with walker mode (not touch by the books) and mechanical arms (commented on in passing by the books, but left to gm discretion rather then any detail on capacity).

[Medicineman]

wasn't there a Cap to the Bonus Dicepool of 20.... ?
SR4A Optional Rules somewhere.... ?

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Larsine]

wasn't there a Cap to the Bonus Dicepool of 20.... ?
SR4A Optional Rules somewhere.... ?

HokaHey
Medicineman

Optionally, gamemasters may choose to cap dice pools (including modifiers) at 20 dice, or at twice the sum of the character’s natural Attribute + Skill ratings, whichever is higher.

Lars

[MJBurrage]

Optionally, gamemasters may choose to cap dice pools (including modifiers) at 20 dice, or at twice the sum of the character’s natural Attribute + Skill ratings, whichever is higher.

Does this mean that jarheads and jumped in riggers—who's drone bodies do not have "natural" attributes—would be limited to 20 dice, while others would eventually have a limit in the mid twenties?

If yes, this would be a nice balance with jarheads/drones being able to get to 5 IPs while others are limited to four.

[cryptoknight]

Hm...

Metatype Elf, Exceptional Attribute, Metagenetic Improvement, Genetic Optimization...that's 10 (15) to begin.
Now turn that elf into a cyberzombie with Essence -6 and it rises to 16 (24).
For Agility alone.
NOT counting in the skill itself, any bonus dice or -god forbid- use of Edge (30+ dice using the rule of exploding 6es is a little bit too much SR3 for my taste^^).

If you have 30 dice... you're better off spending the edge to reroll failures... 30 dice... 1/3 successes first roll = 10 successes. 20 dice rerolled 1/3 successes = 16.67 successes... vs. 30 dice + 6 dice of edge say... 1/6 = reroll so 12 hits + 6 rerolls = 14 hits + 1 reroll + .166667 hits = 14.67 hits.

[pbangarth]

There is a thread archived somewhere here in which a bunch of us used three or four different methods (algebra, calculus, ... other stuff) to arrive at the breaking point in the relationship between dice pool size and Edge pool size in deciding whether to commit to use of Edge before or after the initial roll.

The breaking point is 2.5:1. That is, if the dice pool is more than 2.5 times as large as the Edge pool, the likely number of hits is higher if you save the Edge and reroll failures. If the ratio is lower than 2.5:1, then using Edge right away is likely to get you more hits with the exploding 6s.

Of course, this doesn't take into account that exploding 6s could possibly give you an incredibly high number of successes ("18 dice, and you got 37 hits!?!"), or that rolling without Edge could save you an Edge by getting incredibly high percentage of hits ("I got 17 hits with my 18 dice, so I don't need Edge.")

[Nemo]

Did I understand it correct that Wired Reflexes and the Move-by-Wire-System do not increase the Reaction Attribute but add a bonus to Reaction releated tests an that the Reaction Enhancer increase the Reaction Attribut directley?

[DWC]

Did I understand it correct that Wired Reflexes and the Move-by-Wire-System do not increase the Reaction Attribute but add a bonus to Reaction releated tests an that the Reaction Enhancer increase the Reaction Attribut directley?

Both add directly to the Reaction attribute, much like muscle replacement directly increases Strength and Agility.

[DWC]

Did I understand it correct that Wired Reflexes and the Move-by-Wire-System do not increase the Reaction Attribute but add a bonus to Reaction releated tests an that the Reaction Enhancer increase the Reaction Attribut directley?

Both add directly to the Reaction attribute, much like muscle replacement directly increases Strength and Agility.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

was the ultimate mundane climber pre or post aug?
and the first pornomancer?
or the first brick built?

The original Pornomancer was post-Aug but pre-RC. I did a better version that's current as of SR4A.

[MikeTrevin]

You should post the new and improved pornomancer. I've heard the rumors, but never seen the results.