BIO Drone swarms, costs? Options

[DocMorbius]

Augmentation (pages 141 and 151) has some pritty cool stuff on Biodrone Swarms, however there is no cost for them.

So say I have a player who has a rigger/mad biologist with all the skills to make them and the shop or facility to grow them, my main problem is how the hell do I put a price tag on there 'parts cost', the book is a little help, it says they need the orientation goad auto injector and a cybergland, assuming that the price of one of these each represents the hundreds of smaller versions required for a single swarm how much does the swarm its self cost?

Unless i have missed something in the book there is no cost for swarms mentioned, there is examples for a few other bio drones (Skyspy and Cybertooth tiger) but none for the swarms...

So whats your opinion? I was thinking that it should be base cost (whatever deemed appropreate) x the swarms body attribute. Trouble is I am unsure what to make there base cost.

[Night Jackal]

The way I read it. You have to pay for each insect's Cyberware with a suite modifier per VGI rules. So it takes 5 bugs to make a Swarm with Body of 1. See below per page 154:

CODE

Each Body increment doubles the number of insects in a swarm, with a Body 1 swarm numbering about 5 insects and a Body 9 slightly more than 1250 (as a guideline, Body also represents the number of cubic meters of space an airborne swarm can cover if fully extended)

This makes Swarms really expensive since its mostly military and high end corporate use.


Swarm with Body of 1 (5 bugs) base cost per bug with just Orientation Goad = 500*.9 (Cyberware Suite cost reduction) = 450 so 5 bugs = 2250

Swarm with Body of 2 (10 bugs) base cost per bug with just Orientation Goad = 500*.9 = 450 so 10 bugs = 4500

Swarm with Body of 3 (20 bugs) base cost per bug with just Orientation Goad = 500*.9 = 450 so 20 bugs = 9000

Swarm with Body of 4 (40 bugs) base cost per bug with just Orientation Goad = 500*.9 = 450 so 40 bugs = 18000

Swarm with Body of 5 (80 bugs) base cost per bug with just Orientation Goad = 500*.9 = 450 so 80 bugs = 36000

..... Skipping ahead

Swarm with Body of 9 (1280 bugs) base cost per bug with just Orientation Goad = 500*.9 = 450 so 1280 bugs = 576000


Per the books example of Stinger Swarm

Body 8 = 640 bugs

Orientation Goad = 500
Cybergland (Single dose) = 500
Auto-injector (Reusable) = 500

Total = 1500*.9 (Cyberware Suite) = 1350 * 640 bugs = 864,000 + 640 doses worth of toxin

When he pays that amount, I would say he builds the "Hive" for the swarm (needing a facility equipment). Remember its 50% of cost if you build all the parts your self....but I would add a ton of time to make one.

Also to repair "damaged" Swarms I would make him just pay the per bug lost amount to fix them.

[Night Jackal]

Additional note about swarms, They have a short life span....the sniffer swarm has the longest at 3 months. So I would have him think carefully about doing swarm drones as its not exactly the most cost effective.

Also notice they have a signal of 0 (3 meter range) they are all small retrans units I would add addition cost of a retrans unit from arsenal to the hive build.

[Night Jackal]

When he pays that amount, I would say he builds the "Hive" for the swarm (needing a facility equipment). Remember its 50% of cost if you build all the parts your self....but I would add a ton of time to make one.

Hmm let me correct this part here. They Swarms have an Hour life span per Raw. So he would have to pay 864,000 + 640 doses worth of toxin (of his choice) for one hour of the drones time. (Of course he can save some money if he can have them come back to him before they die and salvage the parts though I limit the number times he can since they become second hand.)

He would have to create a hive for them as well. That's another HUGE expense.... Its basically a Nanofax and it has a ton of restrictions...though if he makes his own it would viable...though I make the plans and know how very hard to come by and costly.


Nanofax (Electronic/Mechanical Fabrication) Availability 16R Cost 2,500,000¥

He might be able to build his own for 50% of the cost but he would need to take a long time making it. He would also need the follow skills as well: Industrial Mechanic + Cybertechnology to make Nanofax and Medicine + Software to right the Program to run it. He might need Hardware too...to make some of the implants.

Hmm you got me thinking...I hope this helps.

[Night Jackal]

hmm Sorry one more post about this....if he wants a home Hive to deliver the Swarm in with some signal range it would cost something like this:

Aztechnology Crawler = 1700
Special Machinery (Hive Compartment) = 1500 (based on Smuggling Compartment /shrug)
Retrans Unit = 4000

Total = 7200

Able to get your deadly swarm into a fight ......Priceless

[DocMorbius]

Thanks for the reply Night Jackal, the detail is awsome to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) however I have to disagree on some points.

It wouldent cost such an exorbitant amount to creat the swarms, in the book it says that these creatures are fast grown in batches to make it both quick and cheap to create them, I also dont think that anyone in there right mind would do micro surgery on a thausand bees to install cyberware and such, it would make a lot more sense to biologicaly engeneer them to creat the toxins themselves (infact the book says they are grown with modifications (i.e no digestive tract, toxin creation etc) .

also for having a swarm to cost over half a million each is kind of rediculous, they use them for minor corps as well as the military and a prohibative cost of them would mean that not even the army would bother, why have a one hour swarm when you can have half a dozen cybertooth tygers (same page in augmentation)...


Your thoughts?

[suppenhuhn]

Well his base costs are simply the amount of insects times the price of the cyberware installed which is given by RAW. So i'd assume the prices are correct.

I would use the lifespan as a kind of operational period, so the drones don't have to be bought repeatedly.
Also a Nanofax would produce the implants itself, so the swarm cost would be much lower.
Probably let him pay for the swarms as mentioned above, but let him buy a contact to get resupplies and make those only cost money if the swarm lost BODY, not just after a certain time interval.
Biodrones are pretty much cutting edge so normally players wouldn't get their hands on em easily and they all cost a shitload of money as well.
Their advantages are definitely the element of surprise and swarms are immune to all attacks without area effect and can go everywhere.
That is something to consider as you maybe don't want a couple of BODY 9 swarms cleaning the whole building before the runners enter.
The above pricing allows for a couple of BODY 5-6 swarms which is still pretty good for starting characters.

[Night Jackal]

Per Augmentation page 152.

Each growth vat and implantation system comes prepared to implant a specific cyberware or bioware suite (see Cyberware Suites, p. 48) in a particular type of animal

It implants the Cyberware per bug. So cost of cyberware is per bug. As I said with the short life span I would allow the swarm to return to home so that the cyberware can be reused. Though I might also make it 6 hour run time as well like most drones.

A Body 9 swarm could almost wipe out a lot of things since Area effect is needed to even damage it.

Augmentation p141

Sensor Swarm VI
Devised to facilitate explosive detection and neutralization, the Sensor Swarm VI uses the bioenhanced
olfactory senses of a 100-strong swarm of bees to quickly and efficiently scout large areas for hidden explosives, bombs, and traps. Though still restricted to accredited security agencies and service providers, a civilian version is currently in development. See Full Specs.

They are marketing a 100 bug swarm which is a body 5 swarm (80 bugs)with Olfactory senses Rating 1 and Orientation Goad = 1500*.9 = 1350 = 108,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

To a company thats 36,000 a month (3 month lifespan) of damn cool bomb sniffing drones. Its not a bad up keep cost if you trying to keep hidden.

The Tiger costs 750,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and its one hell of a killing machining....lets look at that Stinger Swarm again.

Its looking about the right prices for cutting edge tech that is not on the market yet. So Nacroject can be made with Chemistry for 5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (10% of cost) a dose so cost for 640 bugs with it = 3200 or if you buy it yourself its 32,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

So for 896,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) You get a swarm that can knockout about (average of 2 dose per person) 320 combants. Its looking about the right prices for cutting edge tech that is not on the market yet.

Again to keep cost low I would say that they all would return to the hive for reprocessing so you only have to pay for lost bugs every time you use one or he needs a Nanofax with a complex license to make the Cyberware suite for the bugs.

That cost would be the 2,500,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for the Nanofax and 10,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for license to make the Stinger swarm Cyberware suite and 50,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per year upkeep cost. Now you have a swarm generator for 2,510,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) one time cost and 50,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per year upkeep.

That's how you make the swarm cost low since now its a unlimited swarm maker...... I would limit him to 1000 bug a day quota per the book and leave in the 1 hour lifespan as a way to control the cheap killer army.

[BishopMcQ]

Running Wild will have expanded rules on Swarms and bio-drones, including those wonderful things like costs and availability.

[DocMorbius]

Awesome, thanks guys its great to get some constructive feedback (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

also great idea with the nanofax, unlikely to be getting that 2.5 million (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) any time soon though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) but yes it would be a very powerful drone.

Thanks guys and gals (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Oh and one more thing, where does it show the discount for building items (i.e guns, drones,chems) yourself? I found the rules to do it just not the benefit, we house ruled that it means it costs the same but you can ignore the availability but if the rules are actually in any of the books it would be great! book/page number anyone?

[Night Jackal]

Oh and one more thing, where does it show the discount for building items (i.e guns, drones,chems) yourself? I found the rules to do it just not the benefit, we house ruled that it means it costs the same but you can ignore the availability but if the rules are actually in any of the books it would be great! book/page number anyone?

Form S4A page 227 "Using Hardware"

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keeping in mind that the cost for parts is half the purchase price of the upgrade

Just as a side note the costs in Arsenal for Mods are for the "parts" to do the mod not including the labor...so those prices are pretty much 50% already. If you read the cost termiology it says it is just for parts to do the mod.

I use the Hardware upgrade cost rule for making things by buying the parts (same Advailablity) and putting them together yourself.

You might consider that a house rule... But it makes sense by the RAW

[Athanatos]

What 4th Edition Resource book has the most important information on bio drones? I have Augmentation, but I've heard that they were mentioned elsewhere.

[BishopMcQ]

Athanatos--Biodrones are mentioned in the "Cutting Edge" chapter of Augmentation. Expanded rules will be provided in Running Wild.

[Mordinvan]

Since you can make virtually any bioware a genetic modification wouldn't it make more sense to simply recode injectors and glands into the organism?
Then grow them with all the ware already "installed"?
Would make it cheaper, and the resequencing could be handled easily enough with computers of the 207X era.

[Tyro]

Since you can make virtually any bioware a genetic modification wouldn't it make more sense to simply recode injectors and glands into the organism?
Then grow them with all the ware already "installed"?
Would make it cheaper, and the resequencing could be handled easily enough with computers of the 207X era.

A good idea on the surface, but what makes you think you can "make virtually any bioware a genetic modification"? It makes sense, but do you have a citation?

[Mordinvan]

A good idea on the surface, but what makes you think you can "make virtually any bioware a genetic modification"? It makes sense, but do you have a citation?

Pg 93 augmentation

Most of
the functional changes available through biotech (p. 61) are also
possible through transgenic alteration for comparable Essence and
nuyen costs but longer treatment times (typically several months).

[suppenhuhn]

Since you can make virtually any bioware a genetic modification wouldn't it make more sense to simply recode injectors and glands into the organism?
Then grow them with all the ware already "installed"?
Would make it cheaper, and the resequencing could be handled easily enough with computers of the 207X era.

At least the orientation goad would have to be cyberware still, so you can't circumvent vat grown integration.
The way VGI is supposed to work i also believe that genetic modifications wouldn't be much cheaper anyway.

[Night Jackal]

Hard to believe the genetic is cheaper than 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) I believe the bioware glands were 2000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . So I think the cyber is cheaper. Since you still paying for the Cyberware/Bioware Suite.

[Mordinvan]

At least the orientation goad would have to be cyberware still, so you can't circumvent vat grown integration.
The way VGI is supposed to work i also believe that genetic modifications wouldn't be much cheaper anyway.

I'd beg to differ. You only have to do the gene mods one time to a single individual, and amortize that cost over entirety of all the drone fleets you will ever produce. Also you don't even have to modify an actual creature. You just need to change a digital copy of its DNA and then make a clone from that copy. The digital work can be easily accomplished with a computer from about 2040, and would be trivial to even a pocket calculator of 2070.
Given all of this, all you would then need to do is have the nano fax make the implants you need, and to grow your creatures around the implants. Doable given RL stem cell technology, and trivial if that technology is extrapolated another 60 years.

[Makki]

/thread necromany

I was reading into this topic and found this thread. Apparently people have had a very wrong idea of the cost.
Running Wild introduced one biodrone swarm including cost.

As it turns out, you pay cyberware cost per rating of the swarm - not per each bug.
"The Hive" (RW 30) costs 2000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per rating and includes Auto-Injector (700 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ), Cybergland (500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ) and the Orientation Goad (500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ). This makes the base cost for a generic biodrone swarm 300 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

=>
Sniffer Swarm cost: 800 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) + sensor per swarm rating
Stinger Swarm cost: same as "The Hive"
Fireflies Swarm cost: 800 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) + bomb per swarm rating


on a side note: how do I control a swarm? especially a swarm that has split up into several rooms.

[Modular Man]

I'd think that there are two possibilities:
You can subscribe to either the swarm as a whole or to every single member.
If only subscribed to the whole swarm, you can give the whole swarm orders, like "spread over these three rooms". You can send different commands via every subscription you have. If you have open comm canals to every single member, you would be able to get every single one a different command, but you could also feed the command line "stay anywhere within the perimeter of these three rooms" into every subscription line.

Note: This is mostly what I am thinking about the matter. I don't think it contradicts any rules, but if that happens to be the case, feel free to correct me.

Enough money provided, I am getting my rigger his very personal sensor swarm...

[BishopMcQ]

A single swarm functions as a single creature and can be controlled the same way that a biodrone would be. (There's even a specialization for Swarms.) If you divide the Swarm into discrete sections (such as in different rooms), the population determines the Swarm rating for tests with that population.

I would say that as long as they are physically divided (closed doors etc) that the swarms should be treated as separate groups--1 rating 6 Swarm, 2 Rating 5s, etc.