SR4A missed the boat on...., What do you think they left out? Options

[The Mack]

I agree that while grounding sounded useful in theory, it never worked in any group I played with. No mage ever took anything vulnerable to grounding, as it was just too damn easy to exploit for the opposition.
SR4 led to an explosion in focus numbers, but I prefer that to the days of old.
Wouldn't mind some other way of restricting focus usage, though. The current limit is a way too soft.

I actually think the way focus items works now is fine, as nothing stops other characters from loading up a huge arsenal of guns, explosives, drones, vehicles, etc.


However, I had an idea off the top of my head that might appeal to you for a houserule.

Similar to buying Cyberware with ESS, and buying Adept powers with power points from MAG, how about this.

A mage may bond (Focus RTG point Karma cost/20) equal to their MAG score.

Example.

Force 4 power focus = 8 karma per point, total 32 karma.

32/20 = 1.6 MAG used to bond the Force 4 power focus. (.4 per RTG)

For a steeper cost you could do (Focus RTG point Karma cost/10) equal to their MAG score. Making the above power focus use 3.2 MAG.



Alternatively for something extremely simple, instead of allowing a mage to bond a number of foci equal to their MAG attribute, you could make it MAG attribute /2.


Just some ideas, not sure how balanced they are.

And before I get pounced on, let me reiterate that I think # of Foci = MAG attribute is fine as is.

[ElFenrir]

Same here. I mean, 6 foci is making someone easily look like a christmas tree. It IS a disadvantage to be so. I mean, not even in a ''picking on a PC'' kind of way, but simply in a ''these guys will not be able to pass a ward, and will glow to anyone who can even perceive astrally.'' Also, I'd say focus addiction is still a real threat. I mean, if someone took Jazz at every combat, eventually they wouldn't be able to keep the monkey off their back, I imagine. Too much of a ''good thing'' can come back to bite anyone in the ass, be it magical or mundane.

[Dakka Dakka]

Exactly what I wanted to write, ElFenrir, but I was too slow.

I think the maximum of MAG bonded Foci is enough. Don't forget there is another limitation. You can only have LOG Foci active at any time.

[Mordinvan]

I don't see why people are pissing on mages for having foci the spent karma to bind, when a rigger can litterally have an army of drones equiped with everything from sensors to anti capitalship rail guns.

[BlueMax]

I don't see why people are pissing on mages for having foci the spent karma to bind, when a rigger can litterally have an army of drones equiped with everything from sensors to anti capitalship rail guns.

I think the issue is that the mage is more likely to get in with his "arsenal". Whereas the army of drones may get noticed.

may.

[Mordinvan]

I think the issue is that the mage is more likely to get in with his "arsenal". Whereas the army of drones may get noticed.

may.

Then you're using your drones wrong.
The ones people are likely to notice (ie the rail gun equipped ones) don't enter the building
the ones that do are small skimmers and spider drones with ruthenimum armor and the ability to act as target designators for the ones with railguns 2 or even 3 buildings over.
And has been said, unless you're good at masking, enough foci will attract unwanted attention.

[BlueMax]

Then you're using your drones wrong.
The ones people are likely to notice (ie the rail gun equipped ones) don't enter the building
the ones that do are small skimmers and spider drones with ruthenimum armor and the ability to act as target designators for the ones with railguns 2 or even 3 buildings over.
And has been said, unless you're good at masking, enough foci will attract unwanted attention.

I don't want to tangent this thread to heck but feel compelled to do so anyway.

Whats the avail on that fancy ruth armor? the railguns? (your talking about the big ares thing from arsenal right?)
Those guns shoot through barriers without loss?
Now I have to look up ruth and see the rules as I cannot imagine it protecitng against all spectra.

The thing is at a "secure" meet, the mage gets to bring more to the table.
Not complaining but getting whats going on.

[Matsci]

I don't want to tangent this thread to heck but feel compelled to do so anyway.

Whats the avail on that fancy ruth armor? the railguns? (your talking about the big ares thing from arsenal right?)
Those guns shoot through barriers without loss?
Now I have to look up ruth and see the rules as I cannot imagine it protecitng against all spectra.

The thing is at a "secure" meet, the mage gets to bring more to the table.
Not complaining but getting whats going on.

Ruth armor 12R and Body x 1000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Thunderstruck MP-Gauss Rifle? 24F and 13000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Light Gauss Cannon? 25F and 200,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Battleship Gauss Cannon? 30F and 600,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

The Gauss Weapons halve armor before adding AP, so shooting someone through 10 CM of Concrete, they soak like 1 extra point damage.

Ruth only covers visual spectrum, which is why your sniper drone also packs Signal Masking

[BlueMax]

Ruth armor 12R and Body x 1000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Thunderstruck MP-Gauss Rifle? 24F and 13000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Light Gauss Cannon? 25F and 200,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Battleship Gauss Cannon? 30F and 600,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

The Gauss Weapons halve armor before adding AP, so shooting someone through 10 CM of Concrete, they soak like 1 extra point damage.

Ruth only covers visual spectrum, which is why your sniper drone also packs Signal Masking

Thats a whole lot of twenty plus F. We don't see much if anything in the 20plus F range at any of the games I play.

I was more wondering how to mask the flyer and spider drones he spoke of so that they could get into secure locations for targeting, as suggested.

Again, we don't see any twenty something F gear in our games and that's something to consider.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I don't see why people are pissing on mages for having foci the spent karma to bind, when a rigger can litterally have an army of drones equiped with everything from sensors to anti capitalship rail guns.

I doubt I'll ever see a game with capital ship rail guns in it. But to address your issue, for me it si because I think mages bring more to the table without gear than any other character type. Allowing them to GEAR up on top of that is a little too much ++ good IMO. My main gripe is with sustaining focuses though. I loathe the Sam in a bottle style spells that they can have up at all times. Further more I feel grounding puts magic gear on the same levels as non magic gear. Tech based gear as plenty of flaws that non magic gear does not, grounding adds in flaws that tech does not have to deal with.

[merashin]

I doubt I'll ever see a game with capital ship rail guns in it. But to address your issue, for me it si because I think mages bring more to the table without gear than any other character type. Allowing them to GEAR up on top of that is a little too much ++ good IMO. My main gripe is with sustaining focuses though. I loathe the Sam in a bottle style spells that they can have up at all times. Further more I feel grounding puts magic gear on the same levels as non magic gear. Tech based gear as plenty of flaws that non magic gear does not, grounding adds in flaws that tech does not have to deal with.

Mages leave behind signatures after a fight and have to spend time erasing them or they will be tracked. Mages have to deal with background counts which can effectively be a "you can't use any of your abilities" zone.

[Mordinvan]

I doubt I'll ever see a game with capital ship rail guns in it. But to address your issue, for me it si because I think mages bring more to the table without gear than any other character type. Allowing them to GEAR up on top of that is a little too much ++ good IMO. My main gripe is with sustaining focuses though. I loathe the Sam in a bottle style spells that they can have up at all times. Further more I feel grounding puts magic gear on the same levels as non magic gear. Tech based gear as plenty of flaws that non magic gear does not, grounding adds in flaws that tech does not have to deal with.

You mean I can kill someone with move by wire from astral space with out them EVER knowing I was there. Cool, you'll have to show me that trick some time.
Also when was the last time a ward caught someone with a cyber disguise?

[Mordinvan]

I doubt I'll ever see a game with capital ship rail guns in it. But to address your issue, for me it si because I think mages bring more to the table without gear than any other character type. Allowing them to GEAR up on top of that is a little too much ++ good IMO. My main gripe is with sustaining focuses though. I loathe the Sam in a bottle style spells that they can have up at all times. Further more I feel grounding puts magic gear on the same levels as non magic gear. Tech based gear as plenty of flaws that non magic gear does not, grounding adds in flaws that tech does not have to deal with.

In SR 3 our rigger would often try to get one of the light naval railguns mounted on a steellynx that had its turret removed, so it had a very narrow arc of fire. But the sammy would have a target designating module under his assault rifle, and when the excrement hit the oscillating ambient draft device, a 30mm projectile moving at ~ 5 KPS would punch through a wall and splatter some poor bugger all over the place.

[Dakka Dakka]

Back to topic, Attribute calculations for cyberlimbs should be in line with the fluff for melee attacks i.e use average or even minimum. Also there should have been a clarification if only the arms and legs are used in the average or skull and torso as well.

[Cardul]

I doubt I'll ever see a game with capital ship rail guns in it. But to address your issue, for me it si because I think mages bring more to the table without gear than any other character type. Allowing them to GEAR up on top of that is a little too much ++ good IMO. My main gripe is with sustaining focuses though. I loathe the Sam in a bottle style spells that they can have up at all times. Further more I feel grounding puts magic gear on the same levels as non magic gear. Tech based gear as plenty of flaws that non magic gear does not, grounding adds in flaws that tech does not have to deal with.

I managed to get a light one onto a Roadmaster....GM ruled that I had to be going at speed to fire it and not go backwards..and, yes, Deceleration Stress SUCKED....I think I fired it ONCE...with a Troll Rigger..almost passed out from the Deceleration.

[AngelisStorm]

I feel bad for the poor Adepts and Technomancers who now have a hideously expensive stat, which raising is central to how their character operates. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I also agree that raising the skill cap would have been a better solution. Pro-athletes have amazing stats, but what about the saying "talent will only take you so far?" As is, you can build a character who, with only stats (no skill ranks), can equal the very best human mundane with the highest skill level, with specialization, and maxed out (non-augmented) stats. If your going for a "humans are only human" vibe that's one thing, but I'll play Rifts if I want that.

Also I don't see a problem with "magic Street Sams." Background count makes their spells fall down, wards stop them in their tracks, and there of course is astral signature (a lesser problem, but one none the less. What mundane runner doesn't do something about his fingerprints, after all?). They are rockin, but their boosts are unreliable.

[Dakka Dakka]

I managed to get a light one onto a Roadmaster....GM ruled that I had to be going at speed to fire it and not go backwards..and, yes, Deceleration Stress SUCKED....I think I fired it ONCE...with a Troll Rigger..almost passed out from the Deceleration.

What deceleration? Isn't one of the advantages of magnetically propelled projectiles that the weapon is near recoilless?

@AngelisStorm: What are you talking about exactly? Are you referring the table that list skill rating 7 as the best of the best? This table is misleading at best. A skill usually isn't half the dicepool. It is more useful as a guideline as to how much time a character with a high skill rating should have devoted to learning and practising that skill. Comparing the actual dicepools is better for judging what a character can reliably do. In that situation it is irrelevant if someone is talented or skilled.

[Heath Robinson]

What deceleration? Isn't one of the advantages of magnetically propelled projectiles that the weapon is near recoilless?

Not really. It does have less recoil than a comparable energy gas-propelled weapon because there's no excess gas pouring out the end of the barrel. However, you've still got to shunt the air ahead of your projectile out the barrel, and the amount of energy the projectile has is still going to be the same.

In fact, it's highly likely that people will keep the amount of recoil the same between a railgun/coilgun and the appropriate gas-propelled weapon size, and just speed the projectile up. We've done some pretty large tests on the amount of recoil people are comfortable with, might as well pack more damage into that budget.