SR4A and KarmaGen, What's the new starting number? Options

[Shinobi Killfist]

I think there should be a cost for race so if they put that in I'm for it. I just think you should raise your stats and then add your racial mods just like you effectively do in BP.

[Muspellsheimr]

I think there should be a cost for race so if they put that in I'm for it. I just think you should raise your stats and then add your racial mods just like you effectively do in BP.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry800106

[Kerenshara]

We should (eventually) have the mods up in the new errata, but they aren't terribly extensive. I'd suggest using 750 Karma for SR4A characters, keeping in mind that attributes are (New Rating x 5) Karma.

Sounds like another example of how you're trying to minimize the "emphasis" on stats and focus back on skills, which I support wholeheartedly and so does my GM.
*tip of the hat*
I have a whole packet where I converted all the char-gen info to Karma Gen after coalating from all six books. I guess I need to keep a wary eye out for the erata...

[Kerenshara]

I agree maxing should cost in 4th ed, it does in BP. However, it shouldnt cost a Troll anymore to be one undermax in karmagen if it doesn't in BP.

If it does, its a penalty for being a troll. Or another P word, price.

Sorry for making a poor argument. Technically his body is not maxxed as he is a meta variant.

BlueMax

I will keep my response simple (for a change):

Karma is Karma. Char Gen balance factors of the BP system don't apply if you're building from the ground up with the ongoing costs to begin with.

[Glyph]

So is that an official karma for karmagen will not increase in the upcoming errata?

I seem to recall you saying that karmagen was balanced when it was first introduced, has that position changed?

One of the main reasons I shut up about the changes parachuted into SR4A was the indication that karmagen would be appropriately adjusted for the increased cost of stats. If this is not to be the case I think I will be able to classify myself as pretty damned peeved.

Add me to the list of peeved people if karmagen is nerfed. It was more powerful than BP, but that was part of what created the whole organic/well-rounded feel to its characters. Remember that the outrage over SR4A came from developers arbitrarily changing existing game mechanics mid-stream.

[ElFenrir]

Add me to the list of peeved people if karmagen is nerfed. It was more powerful than BP, but that was part of what created the whole organic/well-rounded feel to its characters. Remember that the outrage over SR4A came from developers arbitrarily changing existing game mechanics mid-stream.

Yah, this is another reason why I'm happy we stick with the old system. My character would suddenly become illegal under this new system if I played him in a game other than my own, and that sucks, because I really like him. I mean, I COULD adjust him, but he would go from ''close combat specialist who kicks ass at armoring and has secondary skills in firearms and stealth, with a touch of intimidation and other small random skills'' to ''close combat specialist with an armorer skill because I can't afford the other skills now.'' (note: the whole table has a wide variety of skills. We tend to have primary, secondary, and tertiary skills on each character, and as a group we have worked incredibly well together. Last we left off my character was using his Armorer skill and some of his own nuyen to help modify some new weapons for the entire group, while our face was working on getting deals on such weapons and parts. Awseome synergy.)

I, for one, also liked the old meta costs, but meh. What can ya do. Giving them a cost doesn't really bother me either though, as long as the Karma costs are adjusted for balance.

Question-why not again list several different Karma amounts? For example, say ''If you want them kinda like the corebook, use 750. For low-powered games use 600. If you want characters akin to SR4's old 750 Karmagen, use 1,000.'' If you are planning on that, that's a good thing-but I would like something to maybe give an idea of what we can give for varied-powered games.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

It wouldn't be so bad if there was a real reason to play a human under KarmaGen. Getting one measly point of extra Edge doesn't quite cut the mustard....

There isn't under BuildPoints, either - just play an Ork.

My character would suddenly become illegal under this new system if I played him in a game other than my own, and that sucks, because I really like him.

The official word was that characters will stay legit, though better.

Abilities are purchased for a certain cost and once you got it, it doesn't matter anymore what they did cost. So even if these costs change, the abilities stay.

That also means that until RC errata, feel free to use and abuse the fact that KarmaGen has cheap attributes and free races.

[ElFenrir]

There isn't under BuildPoints, either - just play an Ork.

The official word was that characters will stay legit, though better.

Abilities are purchased for a certain cost and once you got it, it doesn't matter anymore what they did cost. So even if these costs change, the abilities stay.

That also means that until RC errata, feel free to use and abuse the fact that KarmaGen has cheap attributes and free races.

Ahh, that makes me feel a bit better. I was mainly worried that currently played character(my guy has a bit o Karma under his belt as well on top of it from being played), would have to be gutted and re-designed if they wanted to be used anyplace else. This takes a bit of a load off.

Also: Agree with your Ork comment. Really, I see people ''Go Ork'' for just about every concept under BP, and for good reason-even as faces they are ideal.(the 2 dice lost from having a 5 vs. 7 charisma can easily be made up with from outside mods and things like Pheremones, and 2 dice don't even equal 1 success. Being able to take a shot and pick up your own shoes as a bonus of only losing 2 face dice is excellent.)

At least under Karmagen people ''went Meta'' instead. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) [Okay-to be fair, if you were a combat-type mage, ''Going Dwarf'' was actually a sound option as well-but it was indeed play ork a good 80% of the time.)

[Glyph]

I actually liked humans more under karmagen. The biggest problem with humans in BP is not coming behind in points, but the cap of 200 for Attributes. In karmagen, humans can actually have decent Attributes - I am likelier to play a human in karmagen than in BP.

[Mäx]

Add me to the list of peeved people if karmagen is nerfed. It was more powerful than BP, but that was part of what created the whole organic/well-rounded feel to its characters. Remember that the outrage over SR4A came from developers arbitrarily changing existing game mechanics mid-stream.

Add me to that list, for pretty much the same reason.
As my Sasha will not lose any dice from her main stick(combat face) becouse of this nerf, but she will lose most extra skill as well as languages and knolledges(~50 karma in both)

[Falconer]

I will keep my response simple (for a change):

Karma is Karma. Char Gen balance factors of the BP system don't apply if you're building from the ground up with the ongoing costs to begin with.

BINGO

Exactly why I'd love to see a unified chargen and advancement system.

It eliminates a lot of twinkery that occurs in chargen.

It also means you're going to get a lot more starting characters who don't have any more room to improve their primary schtick, as theres' little to no reason to max it now or you'll pay out the nose later.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

As my Sasha will not lose any dice from her main stick(combat face) becouse of this nerf, but she will lose most extra skill as well as languages and knolledges(~50 karma in both)

Exisiting characters are officially not influenced by either SR4A and thus neither by the RC errata to come.

So you don't lose anything - you'll be better than anyone from there on.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In the (probably futile) hopes of keeping this thread 'clean', I will not be saying anymore on the subject beyond what follows (if you want more detail, use the Search).


The lack of cost to play a non-Human race can be directly translated as free additional Karma, beyond the standard allotment, a character will receive for playing such a race - this has been mathematically proven by myself & others.

The 'hidden cost' of playing a non-Human race commonly cited in arguments against us takes into account attribute bonuses only, disregarding any other benefits for the metatype, such as a Troll's increased armor & reach. Even then, I have frequently shown that these 'hidden costs' are illusionary, & thus irrelevant anyways.

The only reason to play a Human in the current Karma Generation system is for role-play / character concept. Doing so punishes the character. This is at best bad design; a player should never be punished because of what they want to play - if they intentionally gimp their character, that is fine - it should not ever be included as a default for a concept by the rules.

Funny, I never saw it as gimped, or as a penalty, to play a human in Karmagen... in fact, I have put together several characters using Karmagen, and they are ALL human... No accounting for tastes I guess...

[DuctShuiTengu]

I actually ran the numbers, and for the sample characters in the 4e core, converting to Karma Gen has an average cost of 620 Karma. Exact costs are as follows:

CODE

Bounty Hunter            648
Combat Mage              566
Covert Ops Specialist    621
Drone Rigger             622
Enforcer                 689
Face                     612
Gunslinger Adept         625
Hacker                   645
Occult Investigator      594
Radical Eco-Shaman       601
Smuggler                 648
Sprawl Ganger            639
Street Samurai           634
Street Shaman            541
Technomancer             660
Weapon Specialist        561

[Mäx]

Exisiting characters are officially not influenced by either SR4A and thus neither by the RC errata to come.

So you don't lose anything - you'll be better than anyone from there on.

Your assuming that she's a character i have allready played with and not just a ready character build.
I was just commenting, that many characters will just have much less deepness with the new karmagen then old, as you cann't afford to take those skills that aren't part of the core consept.
And those extrass were exactly why i liked making characters in karmagen instead of buildpoints.

[Muspellsheimr]

Add me to the list of peeved people if karmagen is nerfed. It was more powerful than BP, but that was part of what created the whole organic/well-rounded feel to its characters. Remember that the outrage over SR4A came from developers arbitrarily changing existing game mechanics mid-stream.

Remember that Karma Generation is not allowed in 'official' games, so if you want higher-level characters, use a higher starting allotment. My group almost exclusively plays with ~500BP (or equivalent).

The official word was that characters will stay legit, though better.

Abilities are purchased for a certain cost and once you got it, it doesn't matter anymore what they did cost. So even if these costs change, the abilities stay.

That also means that until RC errata, feel free to use and abuse the fact that KarmaGen has cheap attributes and free races.

For Missions characters, yes. Karma Generation is not allowed in Missions games, so your point has no relevance whatsoever.

Exisiting characters are officially not influenced by either SR4A and thus neither by the RC errata to come.

So you don't lose anything - you'll be better than anyone from there on.

See above.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Add me to the list of peeved people if karmagen is nerfed. It was more powerful than BP, but that was part of what created the whole organic/well-rounded feel to its characters. Remember that the outrage over SR4A came from developers arbitrarily changing existing game mechanics mid-stream.

Just use more points then. The base options in the game should be roughly balanced. If you want to play a higher powered campaign, just start with more points.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I will keep my response simple (for a change):

Karma is Karma. Char Gen balance factors of the BP system don't apply if you're building from the ground up with the ongoing costs to begin with.

Or maybe, just maybe when giving multiple character generation options they should be roughly balanced amongst each other. It's a simple idea for us simple folk. Maybe you are just to complex and high thinking to understand it.

[Cthulhudreams]

BINGO

Exactly why I'd love to see a unified chargen and advancement system.

It eliminates a lot of twinkery that occurs in chargen.

It also means you're going to get a lot more starting characters who don't have any more room to improve their primary schtick, as theres' little to no reason to max it now or you'll pay out the nose later.

Just use BP or Karma for both, it's pretty easy. Karma is slightly easier to do because it a;ready has costs for everything (just add in double BP cost for races and add stats like an augmentation, not effecting karma costs now or in the future).

BP advancement is marginally more difficult (only marginally), and leads to better long term results because it avoids the karmagen 'trap'

In any team game specialization is stronger than diversification, and what SR4 does require a minimum amount of diversification, an extra dice in whatever it is that you do is always worth more than half a dozen dice in something that someone else does better than you do. Karma gen 'hoodwinks' you into diversification by making sure only the grimmest and toughest of players hack the pace and pay the karma, and hey, while that can work, it is a trap.

For the people saying they wanted the 'greater diversity' of the karma gen system - thats because the old 750 karmagen pre SR4A was the equivelent of playing with 550-600 BP characters. No wonder you could do more stuff - because you where massively powerful compared to a starting bloody character. IF you want 'more deepness' or whatever in the BP system, just give out more points damnit. Using karmagen is just giving out more points by stealth.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Your assuming that she's a character i have allready played with and not just a ready character build.

The other way round: How exactly is anybody going to prove she isn't a character already build?

For Missions characters, yes.

The official say was for any existing character.

And, technically, it is RAW - once you pay the cost, you get the ability increase and the former cost doens't matter anymore. There are even RAW ways to influence the cost dynamically (Learning Stimulus) or get things at no cost at all (Linguistics). So if the costs go up or down, it only affects further advancement by RAW.

Bottom line: If either generation rules or advancement rules cange, it doesn't matter for existing characters reatroactively, both by RAW and official statement.

[Falconer]

I love that... "I made a character using the most incredibly cheesy optional rules" Now when it changes can I keep it.

Considering that Missions chars must be 400BP book chars as I understand it. That' takes some real chutzpah.

For the illiterate among us.... First paragraph... SRM FAQ. (never played SRM myself, but I have read the FAQ at least)

Character Creation and transfer guide for SRM here!

"Character Creation
Creating a character is done as per the rules found in
Shadowrun, Fourth Edition. Make sure you have the latest
printing of SR4A. If you do not, please download the errata.
Shadowrun Missions uses the standard 400 BP system for generating
characters. Priority and KarmaGen are not allowed."

Translation... cheesing out you're already breaking the rules... and it doesn't matter. It even stats that SR4A costs are used... so if you bought attributes for 3x cost... you cheated already.

Entire point of SRM was so that you had uniform stuff for conventions if I understand it correctly. (never been to a convention... no clue how they run/police this stuff).

[Kerenshara]

Or maybe, just maybe when giving multiple character generation options they should be roughly balanced amongst each other. It's a simple idea for us simple folk. Maybe you are just to complex and high thinking to understand it.

*notices the 5" shell curiously as it arcs across the bow*

Hmmm, I'm not sure how I want to address that. If it weren't for the last sentence I would have just gone ahead and answered seriously, and now I am trying to decide what to do.

As I apparently need to clarify my original statement, when using the Karma Generation system, the costs of progression and creation are essentially identical, so in theory it should be easier to compare two characters by just checking Karma cost totals: discrepancies like foci bonding costs are dramatically lessened in KarmaGen because there ARE no differences. Stats bought to max at character start in BP cost MORE to keep people from front-loading too heavily. With KarmaGen, that doesn't happen either. That is the point I was trying to make. I was not attempting to compare the relative "balance" levels of the two systems or make a value judgment in any way. The statement is what it is: when using the KarmaGen system, two characters side by side that have the same statistics should have the same value (assuming the same gear allocations) no matter when they bought the stats.

And since I DO feel the need to get at least a little of my own back, "Maybe [I am] just to[sic] complex and high thinking to understand it"... the word is spelled with two "o"s. Maybe [I am] just too complex and high thinking to understand it. If you're going to mock somebody's intelligence, it pays to check your spelling.

[ElFenrir]

I mean, if Missions chars only allow BP, then I have little to worry about, since tables can adopt any rules they want.

For some Karmagen is ''cheesy'', for people like myself it ''opens options and easily allows for well-rounded characters, albiet a cut above the average runner.''

I mean, I COULD easily convert my guy(especially with his earned Karma), to 400 BP. But he would actually look incredibly cheesy and one-note if I did, as he would be missing all of the other skills that give him flavor, just so I could do his character-based stuff. (Of which his DPs don't run over 17 after mods, so he's not even some OP monster.)

But of course-if I wanted to play in Missions, I'd remake him normally. I have no problems there. I'd need Arsenal, Augmentation and RC to take full advantage, but I could do it.

I still like the idea of giving multiple Karma numbers. I think the old RC did that. After seeing the sample characters converted, listing 500, 750, 1000 Karma might be good(for low, typical, and more equal to the old Karmagen. Even tho 650 seems the average, don't forget metatypes will have a cost under the new system, thus increasing the metahuman character's costs-bringing them likely closer to 700ish.) This way people see a number and can tweak from there. Some of us like playing people a cut above the rest, and we like to know that devs actually think of us as well(since it seems incredibly taboo by many folks that people dare play above an average power level, fun be damned. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

[Glyph]

It really annoys me when the rule set gets drastically altered like this. Karmagen was more powerful than build points. I assume it was intended that way. So leave it that way - fix it to take the new costs into account, and stop messing with everything. It should be an errata, not a damn re-write.

[Ancient History]

We're not talking a re-write, kiddos. The SR4A changes weren't that extensive.