SR4A and KarmaGen, What's the new starting number? Options

[Glyph]

Priority generation as published is radically different and produces far different results than BP even. Yet few people look at using it seriously. (really only out of nostalgia)

The RC Priority system is a joke. It offers fewer options (including very basic ones, such as specializations to skills), is far more inflexible, and has crippling limitations built in (who the hell spends less than 170 on Attributes? You could get away with 150 for an ork, but 130? 120? And who takes 5,000, the equivalent of 1 BP, for resources?). But for all of this, it is more frustrating and time-consuming to use than simply messing around with build points is - even though the point of all of this inflexibility and limitation is to make it easier for new players.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The RC Priority system is a joke. It offers fewer options (including very basic ones, such as specializations to skills), is far more inflexible, and has crippling limitations built in (who the hell spends less than 170 on Attributes? You could get away with 150 for an ork, but 130? 120? And who takes 5,000, the equivalent of 1 BP, for resources?). But for all of this, it is more frustrating and time-consuming to use than simply messing around with build points is - even though the point of all of this inflexibility and limitation is to make it easier for new players.

I had a troll ganger who only spen 1bp for resources... fit the character rather nicely I thought...

[Cthulhudreams]

The problem is that its too expensive for trolls to buy their statistics up with Karma right, which justifies giving them the race for free under karma gen - so they have some 'free' karma that they can use to buy strength up. This is the stated rationale, so I think we are all agreed.

That implies that there is a bug, because if there isn't a bug, you wouldn't need to have fixed it.

The bug is that its too expensive to buy high attributes up under karma which is fixed by the free races t

Under BP it is fixed by players buying up strength to whatever it is they want at char gen and never ever increasing it ever again if they are a troll - which to me means that karma advancement is broken if the troll strongman is heavily discouraged from even becoming more strongerer! (sic)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The problem is that its too expensive for trolls to buy their statistics up with Karma right, which justifies giving them the race for free under karma gen - so they have some 'free' karma that they can use to buy strength up. This is the stated rationale, so I think we are all agreed.

That implies that there is a bug, because if there isn't a bug, you wouldn't need to have fixed it.

The bug is that its too expensive to buy high attributes up under karma which is fixed by the free races t

Under BP it is fixed by players buying up strength to whatever it is they want at char gen and never ever increasing it ever again if they are a troll - which to me means that karma advancement is broken if the troll strongman is heavily discouraged from even becoming more strongerer! (sic)

I would not say it is discouraged, it is just difficult... and honestly, buy your strength to the 9 or 10 at chargen, then add on 4 Levels of Muscle Augmentation and a Superthyroid... it is generally cheaper to raise stats through money expenditure than it is in Karma... It is a Cyberpunk genre after all...

[Falconer]

CthulthuDreams...

You may have the right of it... it's an angle I've never looked at it from. When I think about it when I say treat metatype racial adjustments as ability enhancements for karmagen... that would be really easy to expand to character advancement as well.
EG: basic troll is 1(5) no cyber, no nothing... just 4 points racial + cyber/mag(if any).

I regularly see spellcasters spend for karma to go from 5->6 or 6->7... same goes for physical stats. But once you try to go over 7... it never happens. I think one could say that 35 karma is at the outer edge of what people are willing to spend.

To bust out the model a little more... what if meta adjustments were ALWAYS considered an ability enhancement. EG: you could raise a trolls str from 9->10 by spending 30 karma, just like a human would to go from 5->6.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

CthulthuDreams...

You may have the right of it... it's an angle I've never looked at it from. When I think about it when I say treat metatype racial adjustments as ability enhancements for karmagen... that would be really easy to expand to character advancement as well.
EG: basic troll is 1(5) no cyber, no nothing... just 4 points racial + cyber/mag(if any).

I regularly see spellcasters spend for karma to go from 5->6 or 6->7... same goes for physical stats. But once you try to go over 7... it never happens. I think one could say that 35 karma is at the outer edge of what people are willing to spend.

To bust out the model a little more... what if meta adjustments were ALWAYS considered an ability enhancement. EG: you could raise a trolls str from 9->10 by spending 30 karma, just like a human would to go from 5->6.

My opinion is that everyone would play trolls at that point... there is no incentive not to at that point... paying 50 Karma to go from 9 to 10 is definitely steep, if you bring it down to the equivalent of a human going from 5-6 then why would you NOT play a troll?

Of course, not that that means anything in the long run... currently you play a troll if your concept matches a troll, but when you pay the same price in Karma to raise a high stat, regardless of race, i.e. maximizing an Elf's Charisam stat costing the same as maxing a Human's Charisma, or a Troll's/Orks's Body/Strength Stats, etc., then Humans will be played less often, as there is no longer an incentive to play a human (cheaper "Primary" stat increases comparitive to other metahumans, thoguh a human has no "Primary" stat like the other metavariants)...

But of course, that is only an opinion...

[Falconer]

Tymeus: swings and roundabouts... but the same also applies in reverse.

The troll has an up front cost (I don't believe in meta's for free in any manner). And his mental stats do get penalized (it also costs just as much for a human to go to 5->6 as it takes a troll to go to 3->4), and remember they also take an agility hit on the physical side.

One of the reasons I don't think it's overly problemantic... is strength is regularly derided as the least of the primary attributes. And body is really only used for two things... how much armor, and damage soak. It's not really used for any skill tests. Str is... but generally the tests it's used for aren't as problematic.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymeus: swings and roundabouts... but the same also applies in reverse.

The troll has an up front cost (I don't believe in meta's for free in any manner). And his mental stats do get penalized (it also costs just as much for a human to go to 5->6 as it takes a troll to go to 3->4), and remember they also take an agility hit on the physical side.

One of the reasons I don't think it's overly problemantic... is strength is regularly derided as the least of the primary attributes. And body is really only used for two things... how much armor, and damage soak. It's not really used for any skill tests. Str is... but generally the tests it's used for aren't as problematic.

Fair enough... I could agree with this... Though there are 2 fairly useful skills linked to Body if you are a Spec Ops type... Diving and Parachuting... Strength has 3... Running, Swimming and Climbing... also strength is used for damage in Melee combat, though not really a must if you refrain from Melee Combat...

[Muspellsheimr]

So once again you guys gave in to the bitching whiners crowd.

No. They gave in to those who where capable of proving the system was unbalanced.

Well, in part it's my own damn fault. If I'd made everybody buy their attributes up from 1, it would have been balanced for metahumans (not AIs or free spirits, but that's another kettle of noodlefish), but I got sticky on not wanting a bunch of orks and trolls with Strength 1 and Body 1. Silly thing in hindsight.

Balanced? No. Much closer than the current version though.

That's the thing - metatypes weren't really any more "free" under karmagen than they were under BP.

This 'hidden cost' that is consistently used to justify the current Karma Generation system is illusionary, as I and others have proven on multiple occasions.

You may have the right of it... it's an angle I've never looked at it from. When I think about it when I say treat metatype racial adjustments as ability enhancements for karmagen... that would be really easy to expand to character advancement as well.

Which is precisely what I use for my games, and have suggested multiple times on these forums.

My opinion is that everyone would play trolls at that point... there is no incentive not to at that point... paying 50 Karma to go from 9 to 10 is definitely steep, if you bring it down to the equivalent of a human going from 5-6 then why would you NOT play a troll?

Try thinking of it this way. First, you pay a cost to play as an Elf. Then, you pay an additional inflated cost to increase your Charisma.

That is how the current (Build Point) system works. You effectively are paying twice for increasing your Charisma from 6 to 7.
The current Karma system uses the secondary cost to justify not paying to play the metatype to begin with. This does not solve the problem; this has been shown multiple times.

The reason it does not solve the problem, is because the attempted 'solution' is the problem.


As to the original point, the reason everyone would not play a Troll all the time is because of the various costs associated with playing a Troll - the negatives to attributes &, primarily, the BP/Karma cost of playing one (which incorporates the benefits, such as attribute bonuses).

[Cthulhudreams]

Well, strength is a total dump attribute and shadowrun is greatly improved if Body and Strength are consolidated into one attribute - unless you are seriously telling me that 1 point of agility is as good as one point of strength.

It's why everyone has muscle toner, but no-one has the strength boost one.

My opinion is that everyone would play trolls at that point... there is no incentive not to at that point... paying 50 Karma to go from 9 to 10 is definitely steep, if you bring it down to the equivalent of a human going from 5-6 then why would you NOT play a troll?

This is pure comedy. Seriously, the costs are equivalent at character generation. How many people play trolls? Oh yeah like none because trolls are not very good.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, strength is a total dump attribute and shadowrun is greatly improved if Body and Strength are consolidated into one attribute - unless you are seriously telling me that 1 point of agility is as good as one point of strength.

It's why everyone has muscle toner, but no-one has the strength boost one.

I agree, Strength is generally a dump stat unless the character's concept requires a High Strength... then it isn't...

This is pure comedy. Seriously, the costs are equivalent at character generation. How many people play trolls? Oh yeah like none because trolls are not very good.

Not sure if you are just being funny here but, I have played Trolls, Cost notwithstanding... there are just certain character concepts that you gotta play, and the Troll Ganger was one of them... I have played about 3 trolls in my time... I much prefer the Human myself, but then again, I have played every metatype and a few metavariants from time to time...

Depends upon the Character concept for me...

[Jhaiisiin]

Falconer, the only issue I see with your proposed change is that, like previous editions, Orks and Trolls would be *forced* to pay points into their lower stats just to keep them above zero. That was always my one annoyance in previous editions. If I wanted a big, strong guy, I had to waste 2-3 valuable points on charisma, another couple on intelligence or quickness or what have you, just to get myself a "legal" character. I *hated* that. SR4 fixed that, IMO. Was it the best way to do it? Probably not, but hey, that's what they chose to do. Hell, a simpler fix would have been "apply the racial modifications afterward. If an attribute should be reduced to zero or less by the racial modifier, then that attribute is instead 1." Walla, no wasted points.

How many people play trolls? Oh yeah like none because trolls are not very good.

I too object here. I've played trolls a number of times. 2 of my more memorable characters were trolls. One was a Troll heavy weapons platform that was part of a Lone Star HRT. He had 2 cyberarms, cyberholsters in each -- one for his Ruger Thunderbolt, the other modified to hold 5 spare clips so that he could more easily reload by simply reaching to his shoulder and snagging the next clip. By having this primary weapon stored this way, there was *never* a worry of it being snagged by a perp. After all, you're not going to try and wrestle a gun like that from a Troll once it's in his hand.

The other character was a Troll Combat Mage. Scrag the stereotypes, he was fun and interesting.

So don't make the sweeping generalization that no one plays trolls. Maybe no one at your table. Maybe you would never do so because you're a mechanics monkey. But there are other people besides you and your table, and it wouldn't hurt to take that into account before spouting off.

[Cthulhudreams]

I'm being tongue in cheek... a bit.

Doing something because its conceptually cool is great and all, but ideally conceptually cool should be the same as mechanically efficiency. Trolls really do not have high mechanical efficiency.

I really don't like people being able to play suboptimal concepts. All reasonable character archetypes should be equally playable. This is not to say that troll combat mages shouldn't be playable - they should - but they should be at least as good as anything else which at the moment they are not.

It's rule of cool in action

[Jhaiisiin]

Concept does not always, nor should it always equal efficiency. Both in this game and others I've played non-optimal characters because I preferred the concept and challenge of making the character work. The mechanics should allow and even supplement the concept. They shouldn't be required to make that concept the bestest EVAR! That's just my opinion though.

[Cthulhudreams]

The problem is that most people arn't making the decision to suck consciously. It's fine if you want to do that you know. I'm not going to hold it against you. The problem is not players who know the game inside out and upside down. They know what they are getting into.

The problem is New players picking up the book for the first time and thinking "I can play an Elf hermetic Mage! AWESOME" and then doing that, despite the overcosting of elves and the lack of synergies here. How is he supposed to know? Also: Casual players in the same team as players with a greater awareness of the mechanics are stuck in the unwinnable situation of

A) Getting a lecture on why their character sucks and abandoning the concept

B) Getting the same lecture, ignoring it and being completely overshadowed in game

C) Not getting the lecture and just cutting straight to being overshadowed.

And as a elf mage that studies hard and is smart is a pretty stock fantasy concept, that character being not so great isn't so great in of itself.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Concept does not always, nor should it always equal efficiency. Both in this game and others I've played non-optimal characters because I preferred the concept and challenge of making the character work. The mechanics should allow and even supplement the concept. They shouldn't be required to make that concept the bestest EVAR! That's just my opinion though.

I agree with this whole heartedly... Concept should take precedence over mechanical efficiency...

[Falconer]

Falconer, the only issue I see with your proposed change is that, like previous editions, Orks and Trolls would be *forced* to pay points into their lower stats just to keep them above zero. That was always my one annoyance in previous editions. If I wanted a big, strong guy, I had to waste 2-3 valuable points on charisma, another couple on intelligence or quickness or what have you, just to get myself a "legal" character. I *hated* that. SR4 fixed that, IMO. Was it the best way to do it? Probably not, but hey, that's what they chose to do. Hell, a simpler fix would have been "apply the racial modifications afterward. If an attribute should be reduced to zero or less by the racial modifier, then that attribute is instead 1." Walla, no wasted points.

In which case, it's no different whatsoever than paying a one time cost to buy the metatype up front. And is easily worked into the cost template.

And a lot of people have zero issues w/ paying up front for a meta w/ it's bundled package of benefits and drawbacks.



And quite frankly... while a troll street shaman sounds cool for limited definitions of cool.
There's no reason whatsoever it should be nearly as good as an elven street shaman.
More correctly, it's good is going to be different than an elf's strong points. An elf would excel naturally at the spellslinging with his edge in drain pool and bound spirits, but would suffer in certain street contexts. (and raw mundane combat ability)

Nobody expects the big burly troll to be the spellslinger initially. If they do... high bod/armorr makes geek the mage a much tougher idea to implement.

Trolls are going to be much more common in the low and street lifestyle areas... and more welcome in the gang turf areas... whereas an elf is just asking for it. (rp)...

Trolls can make up the drain pool drawback by making use of metamagic like centering.

That's what I mean when I say, I like difference. There's a lot of options out there, and chars don't need to be min/maxed to the gills. I don't like how BP really encourages doing it by penalizing you severely for NOT doing it (why I actually care enough and waste my time so that karmagen has a good implementation)

I have a lot more respect for a player who finds unique strengths and solutions. Than one who simply says.. it's my concept I should be equally well regardless of the meta. Most games are built around a conflict of some type. Conflict drives story. Conflict tends to create adversity. True character is finding ways to overcome those odds, despite your limitations.

[Muspellsheimr]

Falconer, the only issue I see with your proposed change is that, like previous editions, Orks and Trolls would be *forced* to pay points into their lower stats just to keep them above zero.

Try looking at my suggested character generation - linked to in an earlier post.

Concept does not always, nor should it always equal efficiency.

If your concept is specifically to be sub-optimal, then yes, you are correct.

However, a player should never be punished because of what they want to play - a Troll should be an equally effective choice as a Human, Ork, Elf, or Dwarf (or any of their variants).

[Jhaiisiin]

The problem is that most people arn't making the decision to suck consciously. It's fine if you want to do that you know. I'm not going to hold it against you.

Oh for christ's-- There's a difference between making a choice to "suck" and choosing not to nitpick and tweak things to build the next friggin' pornomancer level character. You mechanic monkeys are so stuck in this mindset of "If it's not optimized to the max, you're doing yourself a grave injustice and having badwrongfun" that it's ridiculous. not everyone plays like you. Not everyone wants to. And Frankly, I'm glad I can have fun without needing ubermaxed characters.

If your concept is specifically to be sub-optimal, then yes, you are correct.

The concept isn't I want to be sub-optimal. The concept might be: I want to be a troll mage. The "penalty" is that some key mage stats are going to be lower than say, a dwarf or elf or human. That's the price of choosing to play a troll. If you don't want any "penalties" or "punishments" for choosing such a concept, then just strip out ALL metahumans to finish balancing everything.

Try looking at my suggested character generation - linked to in an earlier post.

You and I have specifically bantered back and forth about character generation options and balance issues related to this. Plugging it again is pointless. I realize you're likely proud of the work you did, and feel it's a great solution (it might or might not be, but that's not the point), but plugging it every chance you get is getting a little old. Put a link in your sig and call it good, man. People will use your work or don't. For a while, I was guilty of this same issue, but I stopped because I realized it likely would get on people's nerves asap. Not to mention I got some dudar to start calling me a selfish jackhole over my work.

Short version: Sig Link > constant plug posts

[Cthulhudreams]

You mechanic monkeys

lol, my exact quote was that all character concepts should be equally playable. Apparently that means that I am a monkey and am incapable of normal human emotion.

Man, I never through that have a degree of balance such that all concepts were playable was such a crime. Why even have rules if you don't care about balance? The point of a mechanical resolution system is to provide a framework for the GM and the players to tell a story in. Ideally that story should treat all players equally and give them an equal chance to contribute to the challenges of the story.

Imagine for a moment playing a game where people picked the pre-gen characters out of the SR4 book. Some of those guys are actually unplayable as written, some of them are pretty decent characters. Do you think everyone would have equal fun when it came to the challenges part of the game and some players just cannot contribute?

I don't. Maybe you do, but having 'equally playable characters' doesn't seem like that unreasonable an objective.

[Muspellsheimr]

The concept isn't I want to be sub-optimal. The concept might be: I want to be a troll mage. The "penalty" is that some key mage stats are going to be lower than say, a dwarf or elf or human. That's the price of choosing to play a troll. If you don't want any "penalties" or "punishments" for choosing such a concept, then just strip out ALL metahumans to finish balancing everything.

I have never said anything about 'no penalties'. Only that any penalties should be offset by the advantages.

You and I have specifically bantered back and forth about character generation options and balance issues related to this. Plugging it again is pointless. I realize you're likely proud of the work you did, and feel it's a great solution (it might or might not be, but that's not the point), but plugging it every chance you get is getting a little old. Put a link in your sig and call it good, man. People will use your work or don't. For a while, I was guilty of this same issue, but I stopped because I realized it likely would get on people's nerves asap. Not to mention I got some dudar to start calling me a selfish jackhole over my work.

I have not in any way 'plugged it every chance I get'. An issue was brought up that I have previously addressed, & so referenced it. Simple as that.

[ElFenrir]

One thing I think I liked about the old system, and was probably why I was a bit angry to see half the players pitch a fit over it's ''brokenness'', was that I thought back to one of my favorite tabletop experiences.

It was older AD&D. The GM told us not to roll. Nope-he told us to pick our stats. Anything we wanted. We could go as high as we wanted, or as low as we wanted. We also got as many proficincies as we wanted, as well.

Now, did we have 1 18 in there? Oh yeah. Did any of us really have dumpstats(under 9-10?) Nah. But not one of us abused that. We thought it was so cool to do-we didn't want to take advantage of it. Our characters were built as we saw them. We were given utter 100% freedom, and we didn't abuse it.

The whole ''play the race you like'' reminds me of that. I have played a lot of games where the non-humans don't really cost anything; they have other small drawbacks here and there(stat +'s and -'s which the SR metas have, or little oddball things. I kinda recall Rolemaster's High Elves having some very short Afterlife time or whatever it was-time you had to rez them if they died before they were Dead Forever.) I still see tons of humans in these games. Keep in mind humans rarely get big benefits in these games. (Hell, in D&D 3e I saw more humans than I did elf, dwarf, or anything. They had no permanent stat bonuses, but got a few extra skill points per level and one free feat. The latter was nice, I admit, but fighters also got tons of free feats and not everyone played a Fighter either.)

Why, in SR, a game with humans who have a couple nice little bonuses-one mechanical, one social(Bonus to Edge, a very powerful stat, and the fact they are probably the easiest-to-fit in bunch-though I freely admit with the advent of biosculpting this doesn't really count anymore), do they just fall that much behind? Is it simply due to the size of the bonuses on the other races(that aren't enough to offset their penalties?) If all the races were no more than a +2 or +3 to their stats, could this game get away with free races like other games?

I am kinda asking this in a fairly curious way. (I do admit, in The Other Game that I mentioned, once you started getting to the uber-powerful characters, they DID have a cost attached, in a way-it wasn't points, but it was a level penalty. Also, in the old game, their attempt to balance them was the whole level-cap thing, but when you could multiclass and humans couldn't, it wasn't so bad in the end. Later games even got rid of this, and I still don't see tons of them.)

Thinking about it, while I don't like comparing systems, etc-if elves, dwarves, and the like in D&D ever cost anything I don't think we'd EVER see any more of them. I don't see enough as it is and they're free. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Same with my Rolemaster days-human-types were far more common than the non-human type.

[Shinobi Killfist]

It's not ment to be and ther's no reason that it should be.
Thats way the book tell you to not mix different chargen system.

I disagree, and disagree.

They were not meant to be perfectly balanced, but they were meant to be roughly balanced. Theoretically karmagen would be better at building more rounded but less high end stat/skill characters. It actually was better for that and getting max skill and attribute and a ton of other things. They were supposed to be different and had different design goals, but you can be balanced and still be different. I wish 4e D&D could have figured this out.

[Cthulhudreams]

Humans were actually pretty powerful in 3rd ed D&D. They were probably the most powerful race in the basic book, tie with dwarves.

In SR4 they are actually pretty good. Orks are better, but humans facilite a few character concepts that orks don't (i.e. anyone with logic 5), and come with style baggage that people don't like.