Mental Attributes and Trogs Options

[Abschalten]

I've always rejected in Shadowrun that orks and trolls are "dumber" than the other races just because. I don't like the biological explanation for there being limits on the mental attributes of orks and trolls simply because they are of another metahuman race. I've always used the explanation that because of their physical dimensions, stature, or due to prejudice that they would have fewer educational or real world opportunities, and thus would see limitations on their mental development.

This article at Wired magazine seems to suggest that poverty and related socioeconomic factors may very well play such a role in affecting the brains of those individuals growing up in such conditions. While the possible correlation needs more testing, the evidence is said to be quite impressive thus far. This ties in pretty well with what I've been saying all along, and I think it makes for a convincing argument for trog mental attributes. Thoughts?

[BlueMax]

I am currently busy enjoying the contradiction. The post title uses the term "trog" which is derogatory and then presses a pro Troll and Orc agenda.

Being that I have played games for years , and years before even Shadowrun was released, the concept of varying racial stats amongst different races doesn't register a blip in my mind.

While our world suffers the curse of ethnicism in real life, Shadowrun in fact has distinct races. One could get lost forever trying to answer the related questions. Any answer would lead to more questions. Example:
Why are elves so fraggin much more Charismatic? I mean, good looking is sort of the fluff but even a elven TM has advantage from being elven.

The article in Wired would apply to all races evenly and does not explain the differences in Shadowrun racial stats

[Heath Robinson]

As we age, we go through a neural pruning stage where a number of our brain cells die off and the remaining cells strengthen their links. We go through at least one of these stages, and goblinised metahumans mature faster than normal people. Adults are, compared to children, quite rigid in their modes of thought. Equally, they grow physically larger and the social impact of their physical superiority likely pushes them away from academic learning anyway.

The key thing here, though, is that their brain matures faster, meaning they do not gain as much experience before they lose the easy information uptake they had as children. This will impact their academic development, since they find it increasingly hard to pick up new skills and ways of thinking as they progress through the later stages of conventional human-oriented education systems.


It's not a biological fault, it's the fact that the education system of the setting is designed for people who mature slower.

[Cadmus]

How do we know its not a biological fault though? Though all metahumans are a sub catagory of Humans, each one has significant diffrences in physical appearance and basic bioligy in terms that, you can't take a lung from an ork and transplant it to an elf or dwarf. and vis versa. It could simply be a diffrence in basic evolution.

In the end from a natural point of view every race has its own distinct advanages. some has strength, others durability, some are faster and in the case of the Base line. That being Humans, some do not require a mana count above zero, Now granted in normal life the diffrences mentaly speaking are mostly unnoticeable if both all subjects invovled have the same level of learning and upbrinings. I mean its not like we are all dealing with Nuclure physics or something.

(( and in the end just repeat after me, Game balance Game balance game balance. Or the old movie fall back. Its in the script.))

[Tyro]

It's a damn good explanation, though, and doesn't affect the crunch ^_^

[Glyph]

I've always seen it as a combination of faster maturation and a different mix of hormones/chemical balances. Look how normal humans can be thrown off kilter by the slightest thing in their system being wrong, then imagine that human with a completely different biology.

[Degausser]

I always attributed it to their higher body attributes. Ork and Troll Brain-boxes are reinforced and more resistant to damage than any other race (including dwarves.) Their brains are wired to have multiple redundancies to compensate for damage (allowing them to resist damage better, even shots to the face). However, these redundancies lead to less overall area for thinking, reducing higher-level thinking somewhat.

A bit off topic, I have designed an NPC troll for my upcomming game that has a lvl 2 cerebral booster, exceptional attribute (logic), 7 logic, and a Ph.D in chemistry. He walks around with an AR equipped monocle. Freaking hilarious.

[Dream79]

This article at Wired magazine seems to suggest that poverty and related socioeconomic factors may very well play such a role in affecting the brains of those individuals growing up in such conditions. While the possible correlation needs more testing, the evidence is said to be quite impressive thus far. This ties in pretty well with what I've been saying all along, and I think it makes for a convincing argument for trog mental attributes. Thoughts?

The effects of poverty on academic performance and trogs lower intelligence do not really have anything to do with each other and the developers don't make any sort of connection between the two. Otherwise you'd expect to see an intelligence modifier for characters that grew up impoverished.

As far as brain changes go, yes high stress caused by environmental conditions would likely result in greater cases of emotional disorders and PTSD. That would likely have an effect on academic performance, duh. Not exactly a revolutionary result, not to mention that it's been arrived at many times before and just stands to reason. When the needs of one life is immediate a person tends to think immediately.

[Angelone]

IIRC, it was stated that the "intellegence" stat is not actually how smart you are, but how quickly you process information. I'm also pretty sure it said how smart you actually are is measured by the number of skills you have. So the orcs and trolls aren't dumber, they just don't process stuff as fast.

All of that can be explained away by different brain "configurations" for lack of a better term.

PS- I realize I most likely mispelled intellegence. Let's pretend I did it on purpose.

[BIG BAD BEESTE]

True enough there Angelone, skills measure your character's knowledge and learned abilities. The Attribute are really only benchmarks for what your character is genetically programmed to attain - their natural aptitude. I do like the 4e modification of splitting the earier edition's Intelligence into Intuition and Logic attributes. (Heck, it was pretty much what they did with critters since 2e anyway.) In a way, this has helped out trolls and orks somewhat by improving their "intelligence" as compared to SR1-3e. IE: a troll now has -1 to Intuition and Logic rather than -2 to Intelligence.

Overall, I never really questioned the reason behind why trolls and orks had lower IQs as stated by the game rules. The reason was to balance out their improved physical attributes in the game mechanics. Same really for racial charisma bonues/reductions. Surely, if Charisma is attributed to non-physical circumstances,then why do elves get +2, orks -1 and trolls -2? These racial modifiers represent some base level of physical beauty as compared to the baseline human attributes. OK you can argue that the goblinisation trauma and social predjudices of the Sixth World account for the penalties for orks and trolls, but then why do eleves get a bonus? They've gone through at least as much drek as the trogs, yet they still get +2. Instinctive gene-memory elecution lessons aside it has to be somewhat physcially based. But then, logically, in that sense there's no real reason why you can't have a character improve their Charisma by elective surgery - and all for the nuyen cost of the surgery.

Anyhow, as to the in-character game reasons for a reduced Attribute, the social background is not so bad, but then it would affect humans and other races too seeing as its an environmental condition. If you live in that environment, those are the effects. More likely it is because of a genetic trait inherent to the specific races themselves, in which case the concepts in Heath Robinson's post are more realistic. I actually really like that explaination - its logical and if coupled with the one from Degausser it serves quite adequately.

Of course, if we all went by the basics, all mature "normal" metahumans should really have Attributes of 3 +/- racial modifiers. Lower would only be indicative of ill-health or undeveloped/immature/elderly people - not normally something a professional shadowrunner would be associated with. Higher would indicate specialised training or natural genetic optimisation. Rarely does a point-generated character system create a "normal" set of human Attributes, but then where's the fun in that?

[Apathy]

These racial modifiers represent some base level of physical beauty as compared to the baseline human attributes. OK you can argue that the goblinisation trauma and social predjudices of the Sixth World account for the penalties for orks and trolls, but then why do eleves get a bonus? They've gone through at least as much drek as the trogs, yet they still get +2. Instinctive gene-memory elecution lessons aside it has to be somewhat physcially based. But then, logically, in that sense there's no real reason why you can't have a character improve their Charisma by elective surgery - and all for the nuyen cost of the surgery.

I don't think that charisma is supposed to represent physical attractiveness. It's a mental stat. And as you point out, plastic surgery doesn't improve the stat. Additionally, each meta-race would natuarlly be most attracted to those of their own race - dwarves generally find other dwarves as the most desireable mates, and trolls gravitate toward other trolls. In game terms these may impact social bonuses or penalties, but they don't change the actual charisma score.

There's real-world examples of genetic differences effecting social intelligence, including autism spectrum disorders, dyssemia, and semantic pragmatic disorder. Real-life sufferers of these traits can often overcome these challenges through intensive training (which would represent an average dicepool achieved by high skill and low attribute).

[Tyro]

<snip>
Overall, I never really questioned the reason behind why trolls and orks had lower IQs as stated by the game rules. The reason was to balance out their improved physical attributes in the game mechanics. Same really for racial charisma bonues/reductions. Surely, if Charisma is attributed to non-physical circumstances,then why do elves get +2, orks -1 and trolls -2? These racial modifiers represent some base level of physical beauty as compared to the baseline human attributes. OK you can argue that the goblinisation trauma and social predjudices of the Sixth World account for the penalties for orks and trolls, but then why do eleves get a bonus? They've gone through at least as much drek as the trogs, yet they still get +2. Instinctive gene-memory elecution lessons aside it has to be somewhat physcially based. But then, logically, in that sense there's no real reason why you can't have a character improve their Charisma by elective surgery - and all for the nuyen cost of the surgery.
<snip>

Cosmetic surgery by RAW (I don't remember if it's an optional rule or not) gives you a DP bonus to social tests. Physical charisma has NOTHING to do with something like Drain from a Charisma-based tradition, which is why you can't get plastic surgery to improve it. Charisma the ATTRIBUTE has much more to do with social awareness, natural speaking ability, grace (not the same as agility - moving with flair more than moving accurately & efficiently), etc.

[Ayeohx]

Dwarves have reptile strength. Elves are probably more symmetrical. Trolls have horns. Different physiologies all around. Why should the development of the brain be any different?

[yukongil]

I'm just waiting for Trolls to catch up to their Earthdawn counterparts where they become the best "mental" race nest to the Elves, and since they can take the dandelion eaters in a fair fight, they are in fact the top of the metahuman pyramid. Poor orks though have a ways to fall. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ElFenrir]

A troll, even with extreme cosmetic surgery to sand off all his deposits, even him out, and turn his face into the most gorgeous male simstar-manga-lookalike you can think of, would still have his Charisma topped out at 4. Meanwhile the Elf, whom could have easily looked like he fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down, can still have up to an 8. So yeah, it isn't physical attractiveness. There are indeed a lot of different factors in there. Somehow, the ugly-tree reject of an elf can manage to muster more force of personality than the troll who has human girls clinging off of him he's so awesome looking. The elf can summon a lot better if he's a mage, and even with the DP social bonuses he probably is a lot better somehow at the social skills, even if the troll had picked up the Influence Group of 4.

I read up on the social bonuses, and it seems that they are also good under a First Impression kind of basis, and mostly to the opposite sex.

Hell, barring outside forces, that Troll that I mentioned above, with his 4 Charisma, manga-sim-star looks and a body like an 8 foot tall, symmetrical, well-built but not overdone Olympic Dude, and 4 Influence Group, rolls 8 dice, or 10 on a First Impression to a girl who might find him hot. Mr. Ugly Tree with Influence Group 4 and Charisma 8 still rolls two more dice, and both of them have equal training in the social realm. Hell, on a non-first impression, Uglytree defaults at one less die than Hotdood Supreme if he rolled his charisma and his influence group.

Yeah, I mean, some of this stuff DOES seem a bit off when it's spelled out on a page and you're looking at it. Something about the troll, no matter how much he's cosmofied into a legendary looking guy, can't quite reach the social level as Uglytree...so yeah, physical attractiveness does mean about zero to the stat.

(damn, now I want to try making this troll. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )

[Draco18s]

A troll, even with extreme cosmetic surgery to sand off all his deposits, even him out, and turn his face into the most gorgeous male simstar-manga-lookalike you can think of, would still have his Charisma topped out at 4.

That's because he belches in polite company.

[Apathy]

Belching in polite company is a low score in - Etiquette (High Society). Not recognizing that people are acting offended when you do so, and not having the confidence to defiantly continue and charm people despite your rudeness would be low score in charisma.

[Heath Robinson]

That's because he belches in polite company.

Not if he takes clean metabolism.

[The Mack]

Surely, if Charisma is attributed to non-physical circumstances,then why do elves get +2, orks -1 and trolls -2? These racial modifiers represent some base level of physical beauty as compared to the baseline human attributes.

"Charisma represents a character’s personal aura, self-image, ego..."

"A character with high Charisma might simply enjoy entertaining others, may excel at making friends and/or manipulating people, or may be all flash and fun with whomever it is today."

"A high-Charisma character might deliver jokes at the right moment, have a sexy way of carrying herself, or command respect because her timing is always impeccable."


All directly from "Charisma" on pg. 61 of the core rulebook.

[InfinityzeN]

Damn trogs, 'day jus don' got no social presence. Sur' 'day big, but dats all da' presence 'day got.

There are people today, some even 'ugly' who have a great deal of presence and are noticed by everyone when they walk into a room. Trolls and orks, while they get noticed because their big and stand out, just don't develope that force of personality to grabs everyone in the rooms attention.

[Stahlseele]

A troll, even with extreme cosmetic surgery to sand off all his deposits, even him out, and turn his face into the most gorgeous male simstar-manga-lookalike you can think of, would still have his Charisma topped out at 4. Meanwhile the Elf, whom could have easily looked like he fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down, can still have up to an 8. So yeah, it isn't physical attractiveness. There are indeed a lot of different factors in there. Somehow, the ugly-tree reject of an elf can manage to muster more force of personality than the troll who has human girls clinging off of him he's so awesome looking. The elf can summon a lot better if he's a mage, and even with the DP social bonuses he probably is a lot better somehow at the social skills, even if the troll had picked up the Influence Group of 4.

I read up on the social bonuses, and it seems that they are also good under a First Impression kind of basis, and mostly to the opposite sex.

Hell, barring outside forces, that Troll that I mentioned above, with his 4 Charisma, manga-sim-star looks and a body like an 8 foot tall, symmetrical, well-built but not overdone Olympic Dude, and 4 Influence Group, rolls 8 dice, or 10 on a First Impression to a girl who might find him hot. Mr. Ugly Tree with Influence Group 4 and Charisma 8 still rolls two more dice, and both of them have equal training in the social realm. Hell, on a non-first impression, Uglytree defaults at one less die than Hotdood Supreme if he rolled his charisma and his influence group.

Yeah, I mean, some of this stuff DOES seem a bit off when it's spelled out on a page and you're looking at it. Something about the troll, no matter how much he's cosmofied into a legendary looking guy, can't quite reach the social level as Uglytree...so yeah, physical attractiveness does mean about zero to the stat.

(damn, now I want to try making this troll. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )

try and dig up the picture/description of my Troll VAN, he was basically all that in 3rd ed ^^

That's because he belches in polite company.

allways remember that there's whole society where exactly that would be a sign of propper upbringing . .
how's that famous quote again? i probably have it wrong somehow . .
"why are you not belching and farting? Was the food not to your liking?"
in german:
"Warum rülpset und furzet ihr nicht? Hat es euch nicht geschmecket?"

[Draco18s]

allways remember that there's whole society where exactly that would be a sign of propper upbringing . .
how's that famous quote again? i probably have it wrong somehow . .
"why are you not belching and farting? Was the food not to your liking?"
in german:
"Warum rülpset und furzet ihr nicht? Hat es euch nicht geschmecket?"

While true, I think most people caught my drift. Just because you're drop dead sexy doesn't mean you have a Charisma of "Yes."

[Jhaiisiin]

Case in point, the infamous player Michelle and her character that was "So pretty you want to tell her everything." To which other players replied "WTF? No!"