[X] My Assistant

[Zurai]

Voodoo is very popular (dolls and pins, that whole thing).

Voodoo dolls aren't Voodoo. They're Hollywood.

[Demonseed Elite]

There's a lot of material and storylines surrounding it. While there's not a single Zorastrian story in the novels or the fluff, Voodoo appears in a lot of places. Heck, it even gets a storyline stemming from Dunkelzahn's will.

All written by the same freelancer, though, as I mentioned above. There was no behind-the-scenes decision about the significance of Voudoun, it was just a particular writer's favorite. Much like when I worked Tibet into a number of the things I wrote or when Peter worked in the Vatican.

What ends up being significant in Fourth Edition will largely depend on the signature sprawl settings and the plot lines. Though Umbanda, an Afro-Brazilian variant of Voudoun, did play a role in Ghost Cartels. Not because of Voudoun's past significance, but because it just worked for the plot.

[Cain]

I'd still wager that Zoroastrianism has far, far, far more historical relevance in Shadowrun than Voodoo does. Mainly because it's got vast historical relevance in the real world before the SR divergence, whereas Voodoo doesn't, and still isn't a major player in SR.

Voodoo nearly caused an all-out war in the Carib League, and dragged Aztlan and the Yucatan into it. So, despite the fact that you personally like Zorastrianism, it didn't have nearly the impact that Voodoo did.

And while most of the Voodoo appearances are due to one freelancer, he's a very famous and prolific one. Voodoo has had a major role in the Sixth World, while Zoratrianism (and many of the other traditions) have had little to no effect at all.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Voodoo nearly caused an all-out war in the Carib League, and dragged Aztlan and the Yucatan into it. So, despite the fact that you personally like Zorastrianism, it didn't have nearly the impact that Voodoo did.

And while most of the Voodoo appearances are due to one freelancer, he's a very famous and prolific one. Voodoo has had a major role in the Sixth World, while Zoratrianism (and many of the other traditions) have had little to no effect at all.

I would argue that that is because the focus of SR up to this edition has mostly been concentrated on North America (mostly)... with SR4/SR4a, we now have a more global outlook... I would bet that Voudon has little to no effect in Hong Kong or Japan, or even Russia for that mattter... as such, it would be worthwhile to have a more global outlook on magical traditions, rather than concentrating on a small section of the world...

My two cents

[Zurai]

Voodoo nearly caused an all-out war in the Carib League, and dragged Aztlan and the Yucatan into it. So, despite the fact that you personally like Zorastrianism, it didn't have nearly the impact that Voodoo did.

Actually, I'm not particularly fond of Zoroastrianism. I only defend it because you keep attacking it, and I only mentioned it at first because it was the religion I was LEAST familiar with. However, no, "almost causing a war" isn't nearly approaching the vast importance of Zoroastrianism in the real world. Without Zoroaster, no current religion would likely be anything remotely similar to what we know now. It was the original monotheism and many of the religious practices common to almost every modern religion, both eastern and western, stem from it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually, I'm not particularly fond of Zoroastrianism. I only defend it because you keep attacking it, and I only mentioned it at first because it was the religion I was LEAST familiar with. However, no, "almost causing a war" isn't nearly approaching the vast importance of Zoroastrianism in the real world. Without Zoroaster, no current religion would likely be anything remotely similar to what we know now. It was the original monotheism and many of the religious practices common to almost every modern religion, both eastern and western, stem from it.

Well Said...

[Cain]

Actually, I'm not particularly fond of Zoroastrianism. I only defend it because you keep attacking it, and I only mentioned it at first because it was the religion I was LEAST familiar with. However, no, "almost causing a war" isn't nearly approaching the vast importance of Zoroastrianism in the real world. Without Zoroaster, no current religion would likely be anything remotely similar to what we know now. It was the original monotheism and many of the religious practices common to almost every modern religion, both eastern and western, stem from it.

We're not discussing the real world, we're discussing the Sixth world, where Voodoo wars nearly caused a meltdown across the entire Carib League and much of South America. As for real-world Zorastrianism, you vastly overstate the influence it had on Judeo-Christian and Islamic thought. I'd love to see how you argue that Soka-Gakkai Buddhism was influenced by Zoraster.

[Demonseed Elite]

I think this discussion is getting a bit distracted. It's really not about "such-and-such tradition is more important than another." The diversity of traditions in Street Magic represents two aims of Fourth Edition. The first being streamlined mechanics that are more modular; which makes presenting many more traditions more feasible than it used to be. The second being a more global setting approach, even though that global perspective is focused on particular signature sprawls.

To be honest, regardless of which traditions may have been highlighted in past editions, no one (not even the writers or devs) know which ones will end up being emphasized in Fourth Edition storylines.

[Zurai]

We're not discussing the real world, we're discussing the Sixth world

Which includes 100% of the real world's history up to the 1980's or 90's, including 100% of the history of the Zoroastrian religion. It's also not a dead religion, as you claimed earlier; it's a minority religion for sure, but still practiced in several places in the world, with the largest concentrations being in India and the US.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think this discussion is getting a bit distracted. It's really not about "such-and-such tradition is more important than another." The diversity of traditions in Street Magic represents two aims of Fourth Edition. The first being streamlined mechanics that are more modular; which makes presenting many more traditions more feasible than it used to be. The second being a more global setting approach, even though that global perspective is focused on particular signature sprawls.

To be honest, regardless of which traditions may have been highlighted in past editions, no one (not even the writers or devs) know which ones will end up being emphasized in Fourth Edition storylines.

As it should be...

[Cain]

Which includes 100% of the real world's history up to the 1980's or 90's, including 100% of the history of the Zoroastrian religion. It's also not a dead religion, as you claimed earlier; it's a minority religion for sure, but still practiced in several places in the world, with the largest concentrations being in India and the US.

Minus about 5000 years of Earthdawn history, of course. And whatever happened in the second world, and however long that took.

For the record, I never said Zorastrianism was dead, although you are correct that it's an extreme minority. And while its philosophy was influential, so's Buddhism. Buddhism deserved several more paragraphs, at least visiting some of the other esoteric sects. Personally, I would have loved to see more on Ryobu-Shinto, although I agree that it's not significant enough to warrant its own writeup. So, I'm happy to see its wordcount go to more significant traditions. I just think they should have gone farther.

I also stand firmly by the point that Hermeticism and Shamanism deserved a full-page revisit in SM.

[GreyBrother]

Personally, I would have loved to see more on Ryobu-Shinto, although I agree that it's not significant enough to warrant its own writeup.

[nonsarcastic, curious]What hinders you to go dive into the vast space of information called internet and dig something up to flesh it out for Shadowrun?

[pbangarth]

And while most of the Voodoo appearances are due to one freelancer, he's a very famous and prolific one. Voodoo has had a major role in the Sixth World, while Zoratrianism (and many of the other traditions) have had little to no effect at all.

In the small corner of the world upon which you choose to focus, this may be true. After 20 years, Shadowrun is increasingly widening its perspective, and poking into corners of the world in which nasties and beneficents have been around for millennia before the Christian roots of Voudoun, which Christian roots are themselves derivative of Zoroastrian archetypes.

[nonsarcastic, curious]What hinders you to go dive into the vast space of information called internet and dig something up to flesh it out for Shadowrun?

?Because it is too much work to do it oneself, and it is more fun to snipe at those who facilitate such personal research?

[BlueMax]

In the small corner of the world upon which you choose to focus, this may be true. After 20 years, Shadowrun is increasingly widening its perspective, and poking into corners of the world in which nasties and beneficents have been around for millennia before the Christian roots of Voudoun, which Christian roots are themselves derivative of Zoroastrian archetypes.

Its not only widening its perspective, its rewriting itself. The unifying of magic is a part of that rewrite.
The above statement is not an attack. People need to accept that Shadowrun 4th ed is not Shadowrun 1st or 2nd. The game that was once focused on the "New World" after the birth of a New World, is now about the entire planet. Part of expanding that view was GURPS-ifying magic. After 3 years, I have just come to accept the mechanical changes as a necessity of Marketing to the entire world.

There is no way we are ever going to see a Shaman Archetype in leathers or have a "Tribesman" archetype finish out the main books again. Complicated, and delicious, mechanics are a thing of the past. If you want that, play Second Edition. Tom Dowd's era was a fine era.

[The Mack]

I think this discussion is getting a bit distracted. It's really not about "such-and-such tradition is more important than another." The diversity of traditions in Street Magic represents two aims of Fourth Edition. The first being streamlined mechanics that are more modular; which makes presenting many more traditions more feasible than it used to be. The second being a more global setting approach, even though that global perspective is focused on particular signature sprawls.

As part of that modular aspect, I think rather than just presenting a bunch of different traditions it would have been cool to have some guidelines for choices.

For example, some symbolic or meaningful links between spirts and their connections to different spell categories. Or even what kind of traditions would utilize certain types of spirits.

Just a thought.

[Demonseed Elite]

As part of that modular aspect, I think rather than just presenting a bunch of different traditions it would have been cool to have some guidelines for choices.

For example, some symbolic or meaningful links between spirts and their connections to different spell categories. Or even what kind of traditions would utilize certain types of spirits.

Just a thought.

I'm thinking about that, but I can't think of a way to present symbolic and meaningful links between spirits and spell categories without talking about a specific tradition. Because really a spirit type can be linked with any spell category, depending on what makes sense for a tradition's belief system. Similarly, talking about what kind of traditions utilize certain types of spirits sounds to me like basically talking about different traditions.

[Zaranthan]

As part of that modular aspect, I think rather than just presenting a bunch of different traditions it would have been cool to have some guidelines for choices.

For example, some symbolic or meaningful links between spirts and their connections to different spell categories. Or even what kind of traditions would utilize certain types of spirits.

Just a thought.

This I can get behind. The rules for designing a new tradition are missing one major piece of information: WHY the spirits in the example traditions were chosen. Why are spirits of Man assigned to health for one tradition but manipulation for another? Why does a tradition have Beast spirits instead of the Fire spirits used in a similar tradition?

The idea of the tradition viewing various elements in particular context makes sense from the fully constructed standpoint, but how did you get there in the first place?

[The Mack]

I'm thinking about that, but I can't think of a way to present symbolic and meaningful links between spirits and spell categories without talking about a specific tradition. Because really a spirit type can be linked with any spell category, depending on what makes sense for a tradition's belief system. Similarly, talking about what kind of traditions utilize certain types of spirits sounds to me like basically talking about different traditions.

Well one thing that could work might be to take each Spirit separately and just give a list of common associations.

The associations themselves don't have to be thematic or coherent throughout the list either.

Example

Fire is often associated with: chaos, war, destruction, passion, love, hate, determination, purification.


Or something to help define Fire's place in a tradition.

WHY the spirits in the example traditions were chosen. Why are spirits of Man assigned to health for one tradition but manipulation for another? Why does a tradition have Beast spirits instead of the Fire spirits used in a similar tradition?

Yeah, that would have been very cool.

A small rundown on why those associations are made for each particular tradition could give player's ideas when creating their own.

[Zurai]

Its not only widening its perspective, its rewriting itself. The unifying of magic is a part of that rewrite.
The above statement is not an attack. People need to accept that Shadowrun 4th ed is not Shadowrun 1st or 2nd.

Actually, if you'd read what Demonseed has written in this thread, magic has ALWAYS been universal in the fluff. It's only the mechanics that have insisted on making magic arbitrarily different in each previous edition.

[BlueMax]

Actually, if you'd read what Demonseed has written in this thread, magic has ALWAYS been universal in the fluff. It's only the mechanics that have insisted on making magic arbitrarily different in each previous edition.

It depends on what you mean by "Magic is Universal".
Magic as a force, yes. The fluff has always been big on magic as a field.
Magic in use, no. The fluff had attacks on Shamanism as a "weaker" form one where the practitioner needed a crutch. The fluff knew they were differnt.

Different forms , different mechanics, same fluff. None of that is exclusive and since its about fluff, its not relevant.

I don't think magic was "arbitrarily different" between the two in previous editions.
Arbitrariness
Are you sure you wanted to use arbitrary?

I thought the earlier editions were fantastic and written carefully. Not comparing them to Fourth but stating they were fantastic in their own right. So much so, they may have spawned a long time following.

[Cain]

[nonsarcastic, curious]What hinders you to go dive into the vast space of information called internet and dig something up to flesh it out for Shadowrun?

Who's to say I haven't? I'm playing a Ryobu-Shinto Miko right now.

The point is, the book traditions are supposed to be more fleshed out. SM did an okay job, the BBB did a sucky one. But fewer traditions with more information would have been more useful.

[Zurai]

But fewer traditions with more information would have been more useful.

Unless, of course, you want to play one of the traditions that got dropped.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Who's to say I haven't? I'm playing a Ryobu-Shinto Miko right now.

The point is, the book traditions are supposed to be more fleshed out. SM did an okay job, the BBB did a sucky one. But fewer traditions with more information would have been more useful.

In My View... The BBB Traditions are VERY generic, while the Street Magic Traditions are a bit more focused... For even more focus, you will have to take the format introduced in Street Magic, do the research, and apply that knowledge to the given format...

Viola, A NEW Tradition...
Looks like you have already done that in the case of your Miko...
By the same token, I did it for Necromancy...

The way in which it was approached lends itself to unlimited customization, if you are willing to do the work...

I think that this was the design intention provided in Street Magic... Give a few examples and then allow your players to go wild... Would it have been nice to get a little more guidance, Sure... But we have what we have... we should use that to the best of our ability rather than complain that we got "take-out" instead of "Gourmet"

My Two Cents

[Cain]

Unless, of course, you want to play one of the traditions that got dropped.

Then you use the rules to invent your own. If you have guidance in creating traditions (by putting more detail into the ones you get) then it should be a breeze.

[Zurai]

Then you use the rules to invent your own. If you have guidance in creating traditions (by putting more detail into the ones you get) then it should be a breeze.

That street goes both ways.