[X] My Assistant

[Cain]

I don't mind the rules at all. However, I stand by the fact that there's not enough flavor text describing the various traditions. How come Native American Shamanism is the basis for all forms of shamanic traditions? Going into more detail on Native American Shamanism would have explained that.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't mind the rules at all. However, I stand by the fact that there's not enough flavor text describing the various traditions. How come Native American Shamanism is the basis for all forms of shamanic traditions? Going into more detail on Native American Shamanism would have explained that.

I would say that it is not... but the Seattle (and North American) Bias for the original setting made it the only one that really mattered at the time, thus its focus... with 4th Edition, that paradigm is no longer inherently dominant, and we can now explore the more varied forms of shamanism (or hermeticism, or whatever), that permeate the world we live in...

[Cain]

I would say that it is not... but the Seattle (and North American) Bias for the original setting made it the only one that really mattered at the time, thus its focus... with 4th Edition, that paradigm is no longer inherently dominant, and we can now explore the more varied forms of shamanism (or hermeticism, or whatever), that permeate the world we live in...

But we don't. Instead, we get about a third of a page (less, really) describing a mishmash loosely based on North American Shamanism.

[pbangarth]

I don't mind the rules at all. However, I stand by the fact that there's not enough flavor text describing the various traditions. How come Native American Shamanism is the basis for all forms of shamanic traditions? Going into more detail on Native American Shamanism would have explained that.

Strictly speaking, whether the developers knew this or not, Native American shamanism is descended from north Asian shamanism (whence the name 'shaman' came). The detail you call for could have explained this and broadened the scope/perception of shamanism in the game.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But we don't. Instead, we get about a third of a page (less, really) describing a mishmash loosely based on North American Shamanism.

Just because it is not "explicitly" given in writing, the framework of the traditions have been provided, with an example of several traditions given to us in "Street Magic."

This is enough to allow us to generate an almost unlimited number of interesting and varied magical traditions. Will it take some work... Sure, But isn't that what gaming is all about... cooperative collaboration to provide an environment that is enjoyable to all? If a tradition you are interested in is not out there, create it yourself...

My Two Cents

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Strictly speaking, whether the developers knew this or not, Native American shamanism is descended from north Asian shamanism (whence the name 'shaman' came). The detail you call for could have explained this and broadened the scope/perception of shamanism in the game.

How True...

[Cain]

Just because it is not "explicitly" given in writing, the framework of the traditions have been provided, with am example of several traditions given to us in "Street Magic."

This is enough to allow us to generate an almost unlimited number of interesting and varied magical traditions....

No, it is not. You cannot create much of the flavor of a tradition using the fluff as written. Instead, you have to go and research it yourself. Sure, this isn't necessarily a bad thing; but it is bad for time-strapped players and GM's, who want to become interested in a tradition before introducing it into their game.

Picture this: if you wanted to add a Voodoo NPC mage to your game, you'd need to spend some time researching real-world Voudoun, to get his details right. You'd also have to extrapolate how the rules of Shadowrun magic would have affected the belief. Or, you can just read Magic in the Shadows. The SR4 fluff just isn't enough to convey a sense of the tradition.

[Muspellsheimr]

Off-Topic:

Just noticed your signature, Tymeaus, & was wondering if you had seen this - it's so much better (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Zurai]

No, it is not. You cannot create much of the flavor of a tradition using the fluff as written. Instead, you have to go and research it yourself. Sure, this isn't necessarily a bad thing; but it is bad for time-strapped players and GM's, who want to become interested in a tradition before introducing it into their game.

You're talking about something completely different than what TJ was. He was talking about being able to create your own traditions. You're talking about creating NPCs from existing traditions. The two aren't even remotely related, and he IS correct. You're the one who either misread or intentionally misunderstood what he was saying, and are thus wrong.

And, regardless, forcing every tradition to have attached Wikipedia article clusters, like you propose, would mean we'd either have far fewer traditions, or a book with nothing BUT traditions.

[Demonseed Elite]

No, it is not. You cannot create much of the flavor of a tradition using the fluff as written. Instead, you have to go and research it yourself. Sure, this isn't necessarily a bad thing; but it is bad for time-strapped players and GM's, who want to become interested in a tradition before introducing it into their game.

Keep in mind that the time-strapped player or GM is going to spend time reading, whether it's in the sourcebook or on Wikipedia. But a book that adds 30,000 words for detailing traditions is going to be harder on the cash-strapped player or GM. Which isn't to say I wouldn't have loved to write twice as much (or more) about each tradition, but it's not seen as a big enough value-add for the customer.

Picture this: if you wanted to add a Voodoo NPC mage to your game, you'd need to spend some time researching real-world Voudoun, to get his details right. You'd also have to extrapolate how the rules of Shadowrun magic would have affected the belief. Or, you can just read Magic in the Shadows. The SR4 fluff just isn't enough to convey a sense of the tradition.

Picture this: if you wanted to add a Hindu brahmin NPC mage to your game, you'd pick up Magic in the Shadows and find absolutely nothing that helps you. No flavor text, no fluff. No mechanics. Do you shoe-horn the brahmin mage into 3rd edition Hermeticism? Shamanism? Voudoun? Do you make up the mechanics? Now you've got to do a bunch of research and figure out how it fits into the game. Or you can read Street Magic and you know how it functions, mechanically, plus you have a solid bit of information about the Hindu magical tradition: the differences between the path of brahmin and the saddhu, the types of rituals common to their magic, the appearance of their spirits (ashuras), how they relate to mentor spirits, etc.

Besides, I just re-read the Voudoun information in Magic in the Shadows, and more than half of the word count is devoted to explaining mechanics, sometimes literally repeating mechanics information already found in other sections of the magic rules.

[pbangarth]

Instead, you have to go and research it yourself.

Gary Gygax argued that this is one of the greatest benefits of role playing games. You learn stuff. You learn how to learn stuff.

[Cain]

Or you can read Street Magic and you know how it functions, mechanically, plus you have a solid bit of information about the Hindu magical tradition: the differences between the path of brahmin and the saddhu, the types of rituals common to their magic, the appearance of their spirits (ashuras), how they relate to mentor spirits, etc.

You and I both know that every tradition in SM is just a quick overview, barely scratching the surface. While I understand that you tried to draw a line between depth and completeness, I stand by the thought that less is more. Very few people know anything about the Zorastrian religion, for example; if it were completely missing, replaced by a few more paragraphs on Voodoo, wouldn't that make the Voodoo section better?

I'll also point out that Hermeticism and Shamanism deserved a repeat. Each of the traditions in SM have more word count than the core two. I think that's a crying shame.

[Demonseed Elite]

I won't fault you for believing that fewer traditions is more valuable, but I will disagree with you. And as a writer, I know I can't please everyone. Everything I've written faced choices about word count economy. I personally think that the tradition write-ups in Street Magic are more valuable to players and GMs, but you disagree.

Removing Zoroastrianism to add a few more paragraphs to Voudoun might make the Voudoun section better, depending on what was in those paragraphs. The Voudoun section in Magic in the Shadows contains a lot of wasted word count. And cutting Voudoun out entirely and adding a few more paragraphs to the Zoroastrianism section might have made the Zoroastrian write-up better. Zurai, who posted above, might have appreciated that, but you probably wouldn't have.

And actually, the write-ups of Hermeticism and Shamanism in the core book have approximately the same word count as each tradition in Street Magic. They are sort of bland write-ups, though. Probably because they are in the core book, so they can be generalized for groups that don't purchase the other books. Personally, I'd like to see them approached again in setting-focused material. For instance, reading the Hong Kong setting material will give you some more background for the Wuxing tradition (which makes sense, because it's a more common tradition there). It'd be nice if there were more information on Western Hermeticism and Native American Shamanism in future material about the Seattle setting, for example.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, it is not. You cannot create much of the flavor of a tradition using the fluff as written. Instead, you have to go and research it yourself. Sure, this isn't necessarily a bad thing; but it is bad for time-strapped players and GM's, who want to become interested in a tradition before introducing it into their game.

For those with Very Limited time, maybe that would be true... but I enjoy the research aspect to make sure that the tradition is accurate. Sure, I could look in the SR3 Magic book, but, since I do not have it (all of my SR3 material was stolen out of my car), well, then the Internet is the next best thing... and even so, I think that if you "do the research" it will take on more of a life in your game than just reading the text from Magic in the Shadows.... BECAUSE you did the research, it has more Life and Meaning, and since you wrote it up for your game, well, it will feel more real to the players as you will not be fumbling around trying to remember the text that you read...

But, Your mileage will vary... In my experience, the game information that I work on personally feels more real...

Picture this: if you wanted to add a Voodoo NPC mage to your game, you'd need to spend some time researching real-world Voudoun, to get his details right. You'd also have to extrapolate how the rules of Shadowrun magic would have affected the belief. Or, you can just read Magic in the Shadows. The SR4 fluff just isn't enough to convey a sense of the tradition.

Which is why I research the details anyway... the "Fluff" from Magic in the shadows could have some things wrong, and I would want to at least verify the data was correct... And yes, I even look into the data presented in the Street Magic reference to get more of a feeling for the details, and I tend to add these details as needed for each tradition.

Just my two cents

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Off-Topic:

Just noticed your signature, Tymeaus, & was wondering if you had seen this - it's so much better (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Nice... I like it... I may have to change my Signature...

[Cain]

Removing Zoroastrianism to add a few more paragraphs to Voudoun might make the Voudoun section better, depending on what was in those paragraphs. The Voudoun section in Magic in the Shadows contains a lot of wasted word count. And cutting Voudoun out entirely and adding a few more paragraphs to the Zoroastrianism section might have made the Zoroastrian write-up better. Zurai, who posted above, might have appreciated that, but you probably wouldn't have.

That's because Voodoo holds a special place in the Shadowrun world, while Zorastrianism doesn't have much influence even in the real world.

But even with the overviews being what they are, there's a lot missing from them. For example, real-world Shinto is frequently mixed with Buddhism, creating what's known as Ryobu-Shinto. A sentence or two on that would enable people to create their own Ryobu-Shinto tradition.

And actually, the write-ups of Hermeticism and Shamanism in the core book have approximately the same word count as each tradition in Street Magic. They are sort of bland write-ups, though. Probably because they are in the core book, so they can be generalized for groups that don't purchase the other books. Personally, I'd like to see them approached again in setting-focused material. For instance, reading the Hong Kong setting material will give you some more background for the Wuxing tradition (which makes sense, because it's a more common tradition there). It'd be nice if there were more information on Western Hermeticism and Native American Shamanism in future material about the Seattle setting, for example.

Here, we agree. Hermeticism and Shamanism were due for a revisit in SM; but a revisit somewhere else would be nice as well. Fitting it into the location material would be perfect!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's because Voodoo holds a special place in the Shadowrun world, while Zorastrianism doesn't have much influence even in the real world.

But even with the overviews being what they are, there's a lot missing from them. For example, real-world Shinto is frequently mixed with Buddhism, creating what's known as Ryobu-Shinto. A sentence or two on that would enable people to create their own Ryobu-Shinto tradition.

Or, you do a little research, discover this fact and add the flavor yourself... A lot of people (all of those not familiar with Ryobu-Shinto), even with the inclusion that you suggested, would STILL need to do their own research to make the Tradition of Ryobu-Shinto a playable one.

I will say it again... Research is not a bad thing...

Two Cents and all that...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You're talking about something completely different than what TJ was. He was talking about being able to create your own traditions. You're talking about creating NPCs from existing traditions. The two aren't even remotely related, and he IS correct. You're the one who either misread or intentionally misunderstood what he was saying, and are thus wrong.

And, regardless, forcing every tradition to have attached Wikipedia article clusters, like you propose, would mean we'd either have far fewer traditions, or a book with nothing BUT traditions.

Thanks for the support... Much Appreciated...

[pbangarth]

That's because Voodoo holds a special place in the Shadowrun world, while Zorastrianism doesn't have much influence even in the real world.

This statement is exactly why the current format is better. At least people get to hear of Zoroastrianism, and wonder,"What is it?" Those who do check it out find that the entire Judaeo-Christian/Islamic mythology owes a HUGE debt to Zoroastrianism. Hence, it does have much influence, at least in the real world, if not in the blindered world of Shadowrun.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This statement is exactly why the current format is better. At least people get to hear of Zoroastrianism, and wonder,"What is it?" Those who do check it out find that the entire Judaeo-Christian/Islamic mythology owes a HUGE debt to Zoroastrianism. Hence, it does have much influence, at least in the real world, if not in the blindered world of Shadowrun.

Exactly... Well stated... I never approached it from this angle, but it is very appropriate... There are a LOT of Real World religions that are useable for Shadowrun and it's magical traditions, and showcasing those few found in Street Magic exposes others to their existence...

So... When can we expect another Sourcebook showcasing a few dozen more? Using the current format of course.

[Demonseed Elite]

Voodoo's special place in Shadowrun is pretty much owed to it being a favorite tradition of Steve Kenson's. He worked it in wherever he could (as writers--including me--will often do with their favorite topics).

[Cain]

This statement is exactly why the current format is better. At least people get to hear of Zoroastrianism, and wonder,"What is it?"

This is Shadowrun, not World Religions 101. If I wanted an overview on Zorastrianism, I'd go to my local library. If I want a playable magical tradition and its place in the 6th world, I'd go to a Shadowrun sourcebook. In the world of Shadowrun, Voodoo is of much more importance, holds a more prominent niche, and deserves more word count.

[Heath Robinson]

But even with the overviews being what they are, there's a lot missing from them. For example, real-world Shinto is frequently mixed with Buddhism, creating what's known as Ryobu-Shinto. A sentence or two on that would enable people to create their own Ryobu-Shinto tradition.

Not really. You've given us a sentence on Ryobu-Shinto there, and I still know nothing about what followers of Ryobu-Shinto actually believe. I don't feel at all enthused to create a Ryobu-Shinto tradition magician from your description, despite liking both Shinto and Buddhism as possible magician paradigms. If you feel that you've not given a good showing of the two-sentence style you advocate, I invite you to do your best to demonstrate its worth. Be sure to provide a Ryobu-Shinto entry.

In order to get people out of the "Shamanism or Hermeticism" shell, you need to provide material that captures the imagination of the reader. A sentence by itself doesn't provide enough information to do that. At the same time, the writers have to pay attention to the space budget. The balance struck in Street Magic is good.

This is Shadowrun, not World Religions 101. If I wanted an overview on Zorastrianism, I'd go to my local library. If I want a playable magical tradition and its place in the 6th world, I'd go to a Shadowrun sourcebook.

So many people go out of their way to find out about subjects they don't even know exist.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not really. You've given us a sentence on Ryobu-Shinto there, and I still know nothing about what followers of Ryobu-Shinto actually believe. I don't feel at all enthused to create a Ryobu-Shinto tradition magician from your description, despite liking both Shinto and Buddhism as possible magician paradigms. If you feel that you've not given a good showing of the two-sentence style you advocate, I invite you to do your best to demonstrate its worth. Be sure to provide a Ryobu-Shinto entry.

In order to get people out of the "Shamanism or Hermeticism" shell, you need to provide material that captures the imagination of the reader. A sentence by itself doesn't provide enough information to do that. At the same time, the writers have to pay attention to the space budget. The balance struck in Street Magic is good.



So many people go out of their way to find out about subjects they don't even know exist.

Exactly, Which is one of the things I like about Roleplaying games... They are a great learning tool... If you take advantage of the opportunities that they represent...

[Tyro]

Has anyone else noticed that it's basically everyone vs. Cain on this topic?

That seems to happen a lot :-/