[X] My Assistant

[Draco18s]

Has anyone else noticed that it's basically everyone vs. Cain on this topic?

I actually hold no position on this argument. The only other "vs. Cain" topic I recall was about if SR4A was "good" or not, and there I think I was sided with Cain on several points.

[Malicant]

Something about Cain makes people disagree with him, even if he is right. Don't ask why, just search for Mr. Lucky, and look for closed threads that are still smoldering.

[kzt]

Personally, I'd like to see them approached again in setting-focused material. For instance, reading the Hong Kong setting material will give you some more background for the Wuxing tradition (which makes sense, because it's a more common tradition there). It'd be nice if there were more information on Western Hermeticism and Native American Shamanism in future material about the Seattle setting, for example.

I really wish the developers would be willing to throw out entire chapters of the base book and replace them in expansions. I hate having to look between two different books to figure out how a mechanic works. Plus they can FIX broken mechanics instead of trying to paper over them.

[pbangarth]

This is Shadowrun, not World Religions 101. If I wanted an overview on Zorastrianism, I'd go to my local library. If I want a playable magical tradition and its place in the 6th world, I'd go to a Shadowrun sourcebook. In the world of Shadowrun, Voodoo is of much more importance, holds a more prominent niche, and deserves more word count.

There is more to Shadowrun than Seattle, more to Shadowrun than Voudun/Hermeticism/Shamanism, more to Shadowrun than the limited perspective of personal interests of the (admittedly very creative and muchly appreciated) original developers, or to be more accurate, the perspective of same that players have chosen to focus on, ignoring the possibilities. Not all of us choose to limit ourselves and our game play. Some of us would like to branch out, particularly since the game has been around for twenty years now, and the set pieces like Seattle are becoming somewhat boring.

If one wishes to be limited and focussed on the same-old-same-old, let him remain behind.

[BlueMax]

If one wishes to be limited and focussed on the same-old-same-old, let him remain behind.

Just because one is limited and focused does not mean it has to be "same-old-same-old". I thought it was a pretty good post till the implication that focus put you behind. Focus and strength, in this case degree of intensity and effectiveness, can get you ahead and set you apart from the pack.

BlueMax

[TheForgotten]

Yeah, it's flavor. Yes, the new system is very flexible and allows for more real-world traditions to be brought into Shadowrun. The problem is, there's so much emphasis on the new system, there's almost no description. Hermeticism and Shamanism get about four paragraphs of flavor each in the BBB. Of all the new traditions, they get maybe two. Fewer traditions, with richer descriptions, would have been a lot better.

Suggest if you feel that way the best thing to do is to start lobbying for the big book of traditions, which will give each a couple of pages, present a couple unique edges for each and some new metamagic techniques.

[Zurai]

Just because one is limited and focused does not mean it has to be "same-old-same-old". I thought it was a pretty good post till the implication that focus put you behind. Focus and strength, in this case degree of intensity and effectiveness, can get you ahead and set you apart from the pack.

BlueMax

He didn't say limited and focused in general. He said limited to and focused on the same old stuff, specifically. Which is pretty much what Cain is arguing for -- "Voodoo is more important in the world of Shadowrun (or at least in North America), so screw all the other new traditions that don't hold as much historical weight because the old system of requiring each tradition to have its own separate mechanics prevented anyone from following them, thus preventing them from having any significance in the world of Shadowrun. Self-Fulfilling Prophecies are the shiznit, yo!"

[Dream79]

But even with the overviews being what they are, there's a lot missing from them. For example, real-world Shinto is frequently mixed with Buddhism, creating what's known as Ryobu-Shinto. A sentence or two on that would enable people to create their own Ryobu-Shinto tradition.

To be honest I'm not sure Ryobu-Shinto would constitute a separate tradition since it's really more of the view that shinto kami are incarnations of buddhisattvas. A Ryobu-shinto that might have tradition of there own would be shugendo (yamabushi) for instance, though for mystic purpose it's heavily based on the esoteric buddhism of the Shingon and Tendai sects.

[Tyro]

To be honest I'm not sure Ryobu-Shinto would constitute a separate tradition since it's really more of the view that shinto kami are incarnations of buddhisattvas. A Ryobu-shinto that might have tradition of there own would be shugendo (yamabushi) for instance, though for mystic purpose it's heavily based on the esoteric buddhism of the Shingon and Tendai sects.

I love being on a forum with interesting and informed people ^_^

I learn so much!

[Edit:] No, that was not sarcasm. I really do mean it.

[Dream79]

I love being on a forum with interesting and informed people ^_^

I learn so much!

[Edit:] No, that was not sarcasm. I really do mean it.

Eh, I figure everybody knows something, though I'll agree that the discussions in dumpshock have no peer.

[Tyro]

Eh, I figure everybody knows something, though I'll agree that the discussions in dumpshock have no peer.

None that I've seen ^_^

[Demonseed Elite]

To be honest I'm not sure Ryobu-Shinto would constitute a separate tradition since it's really more of the view that shinto kami are incarnations of buddhisattvas. A Ryobu-shinto that might have tradition of there own would be shugendo (yamabushi) for instance, though for mystic purpose it's heavily based on the esoteric buddhism of the Shingon and Tendai sects.

And Shingon is a Japanese branch of Vajrayana Buddhism, which itself is the branch of Buddhism that the Buddhist tradition in Street Magic is based on. So it's likely that functionally it would follow the Buddhist tradition.

[Dwight]

And, regardless, forcing every tradition to have attached Wikipedia article clusters, like you propose, would mean we'd either have far fewer traditions, or a book with nothing BUT traditions.

Of course, he's saying he'd rather just stick to the core traditions. Unfortunately that would mean cutting something that SR4 has done, and DE has said is fairly popular, a bunch of ready-to-go stats for traditions outside the big 2. His preference basically comes down to his lack of priority for that. *shrug*

Well that and, I suspect, his preference for being a grumpy naysayer and his desire to see everything in SR canon fleshed out to the nth degree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Both disturbingly common in long time SR fans at Dumpshock.

[Cain]

To be honest I'm not sure Ryobu-Shinto would constitute a separate tradition since it's really more of the view that shinto kami are incarnations of buddhisattvas. A Ryobu-shinto that might have tradition of there own would be shugendo (yamabushi) for instance, though for mystic purpose it's heavily based on the esoteric buddhism of the Shingon and Tendai sects.

These two sentences would be a good addition to the Shinto section of SM. Trim out the traditions no one will use, and add more word count to those that have an impact on the 6th world.

Really, if I had my way, things would look like this:

One full page each in the BBB on Hermeticism and Shamanism. Plus art.

Half a page (or more) on fewer traditions in SM.

A complete walkthrough on how to build a tradition (similar to what we already have).

Note that SM is closer to what I'm hoping for; it's the really weak descriptions in the BBB that irk me.

[Tyro]

These two sentences would be a good addition to the Shinto section of SM. Trim out the traditions no one will use, and add more word count to those that have an impact on the 6th world.

Really, if I had my way, things would look like this:

One full page each in the BBB on Hermeticism and Shamanism. Plus art.

Half a page (or more) on fewer traditions in SM.

A complete walkthrough on how to build a tradition (similar to what we already have).

Note that SM is closer to what I'm hoping for; it's the really weak descriptions in the BBB that irk me.

If you did that, you would probably cut some of my favorites, like Zoroastrianism. I like it as is.

I agree that the BBB is pretty weak on the subject, but they knew they would be releasing street magic. They should have given a bit more space to shamanism and hermeticism, I agree.

[GreyBrother]

Talked with my GM yesterday about this.
His point was exactly as Cain said, that some of the minor traditions could be thrown out of the window or added in things like the Digital Grimoire but there should be a little bit more structure about the more prominent Traditions, like general customs, holy days, a description of the history and the "how the Tradition exists now" and relations to other traditions.
I think it is a valid point. But it it can't be resolved until somebody invents a timemachine. But maybe there is some place in a future publication for exactly that? A big Book of Shadowrun Hermeticism like those nifty chapters in the SOTA Books? Or as a free download/webpage presentation?

[darthmord]

If the published products are so lacking in the opinions of many people on this thread, why don't we see about starting up a section of DumpShock that is nothing but fan creations?

[Demonseed Elite]

The tradition write-ups in the core book are pretty weak. I'm totally with you there. I'm not sure who wrote those; I can only guess they tried to keep them vague because it's a core book and they wanted people to be able to just play with the core book and some very vanilla Hermeticism and Shamanism if they had to. I mean, if you just pick up the core book and never pick up Street Magic, you can technically take that Hermetic tradition and the Shamanic tradition and apply it to anything, because they are so openly defined.

Aside from the possibility of a big book of traditions (which I really doubt will ever happen), I think those kinds of details are best handled in setting material, especially the sprawl books. Especially since some of those traditions will have different practices in different areas. Japanese Shingon magicians will have different holy days and customs than a Tibetan monk, even though mechanically they probably use the same tradition. Similarly, a Hermetic in Seattle won't be exactly the same as a Hermetic in Cairo.

[Mäx]

In the world of Shadowrun, Voodoo is of much more importance, holds a more prominent niche, and deserves more word count.

Umm... why is voodoo so importand in SR world.

[ornot]

In my experience players usually ignore the traditions listed in the book, and write their own. I don't think that this suggests the core traditions or the extra ones in SM are poorly written, inadequately fluffed or anything like that, but that the new system is astoundingly easy to adjust and personalise. Including the variety they have makes it easy to create new traditions, which having only Shamanism, Hermeticism and Voodoo would not. I also disagree that Voodoo should be considered a major Tradition, alongside the Big Two which have always been the options available. Voodoo does not, in my view, fill a unique niche unoccupied by Shamanism and Hermeticism, any more than Wicca or Druidism might.

I do agree that one problem with the new system is that it does make traditions blend a bit too much. My solution to this is a minor houserule (I know, I'm a houserule fiend) whereby each Tradition has a specific geas integral to it. It might be Incantation, or Prayer, or in the case of the Summer Dress tradition, a requirement to wear and look hot in a summer dress. I should specify that this geas is non-optional, and provides no BP return. Other than that it should follow all the usual rules for Geases.

[Blade]

It's not hard to find a lot of information for the traditions that already exist (or existed).
I prefer to have the space used for things specific to Shadowrun rather than for things I can easily find elsewhere.

[Cain]

Umm... why is voodoo so importand in SR world.

There's a lot of material and storylines surrounding it. While there's not a single Zorastrian story in the novels or the fluff, Voodoo appears in a lot of places. Heck, it even gets a storyline stemming from Dunkelzahn's will.

[Tyro]

In my experience players usually ignore the traditions listed in the book, and write their own. I don't think that this suggests the core traditions or the extra ones in SM are poorly written, inadequately fluffed or anything like that, but that the new system is astoundingly easy to adjust and personalise. Including the variety they have makes it easy to create new traditions, which having only Shamanism, Hermeticism and Voodoo would not. I also disagree that Voodoo should be considered a major Tradition, alongside the Big Two which have always been the options available. Voodoo does not, in my view, fill a unique niche unoccupied by Shamanism and Hermeticism, any more than Wicca or Druidism might.

I do agree that one problem with the new system is that it does make traditions blend a bit too much. My solution to this is a minor houserule (I know, I'm a houserule fiend) whereby each Tradition has a specific geas integral to it. It might be Incantation, or Prayer, or in the case of the Summer Dress tradition, a requirement to wear and look hot in a summer dress. I should specify that this geas is non-optional, and provides no BP return. Other than that it should follow all the usual rules for Geases.

The plural of geas is geasa. Pronounced "GUESS-ahh", "GEYS-ahh", or "gay-AHS-ahh".

Gaelic is strange O.o

[Zurai]

There's a lot of material and storylines surrounding it. While there's not a single Zorastrian story in the novels or the fluff, Voodoo appears in a lot of places. Heck, it even gets a storyline stemming from Dunkelzahn's will.

I'd still wager that Zoroastrianism has far, far, far more historical relevance in Shadowrun than Voodoo does. Mainly because it's got vast historical relevance in the real world before the SR divergence, whereas Voodoo doesn't, and still isn't a major player in SR.

[Draco18s]

I'd still wager that Zoroastrianism has far, far, far more historical relevance in Shadowrun than Voodoo does. Mainly because it's got vast historical relevance in the real world before the SR divergence, whereas Voodoo doesn't, and still isn't a major player in SR.

But in the real world all magic is voodoo. Voodoo is very popular (dolls and pins, that whole thing). So it's no surprise that when "Surprise! Magic is real!" happens a lot of people fall into the cultural understanding that they have and "practice voodoo" because "that's how they did it in the movies."