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Raizer
post Apr 1 2009, 05:24 PM
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I am helping a player build a mystic adept possession based character for my campaign. As such, I have realized there are some questions I can’t answer or may contradict what the book is stating.

1. If a spirit possesses another player, the spirit is dual natured. Does that mean the host (who can’t perform actions themselves and really just ‘watches’ as things happen) count as being able to astral perceive events or is it just the spirit that counts as dual natured? (Which is the way I think it works).
2. As a follow up, the same mage possesses himself with channeling. They don’t have astral perception; do they now have access astral perception through the spirit?
3. It’s clear that their PHYSICAL stats go up equal to the force of the sprit, regardless of Channeling. How many IP’s does a channeled mage get?

Thanks
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DireRadiant
post Apr 1 2009, 06:30 PM
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QUOTE (Raizer @ Apr 1 2009, 12:24 PM) *
1. If a spirit possesses another player, the spirit is dual natured. Does that mean the host (who can’t perform actions themselves and really just ‘watches’ as things happen) count as being able to astral perceive events or is it just the spirit that counts as dual natured? (Which is the way I think it works).
2. As a follow up, the same mage possesses himself with channeling. They don’t have astral perception; do they now have access astral perception through the spirit?


The Possessed Entity does not gain access to the skills and senses of the Possessing spirit. The spirit does not gain access to the skills and abilities of the vessel. Check the sidebar on p. 102 of Street magic

1. Dual Nature is because the Possessing Spirit is dual natured while in a vessel.

2. No.

3. Check the sidebar, but use the spirits normal IP (2 while Possessing) and calculate Initiative on the new attributes.
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HappyDaze
post Apr 1 2009, 11:05 PM
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2. YES. The combined being is now Dual Natured and is both physically and astrally active. It can use Assensing regardless of which intelligence guides the gestalt. This even applies without Channeling, but the host is little more than a passenger in such a case.
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Raizer
post Apr 2 2009, 03:34 AM
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So, 2 different answers to issue 2. Anyone else have input?
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pbangarth
post Apr 2 2009, 06:05 AM
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The body of the summoner who summoned the spirit and had it possess him is under control of one or the other 'mind' inside of it, but never both at the same time. The body, possessed by two minds, is dual natured. The spirit mind is able to perceive astrally. The metahuman mind can perceive astrally if it has the appropriate ability to do so, otherwise it can perceive only the physical plane. Neither has access to the skills or abilities of the other, except in the indirect sense of the summoner being able to command the spirit.

If the summoner has the Channeling Metamagic, then she can take over control of her body, but she still has no access to the spirit's mind, which is where the spirit has the ability to perceive the astral. So if she does not have Astral Perception as a power, she is blind to the astral plane.
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Da9iel
post Apr 2 2009, 08:35 AM
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Hmm. That's odd. I had always equated dual nature and astral sight.
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raggedhalo
post Apr 2 2009, 01:15 PM
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QUOTE (Raizer @ Apr 1 2009, 12:24 PM) *
1. If a spirit possesses another player, the spirit is dual natured. Does that mean the host (who can’t perform actions themselves and really just ‘watches’ as things happen) count as being able to astral perceive events or is it just the spirit that counts as dual natured? (Which is the way I think it works).


The whole thing is dual natured. The possessed character will remember experiencing the astral place. This is likely quite weird.

QUOTE (Raizer @ Apr 1 2009, 12:24 PM) *
2. As a follow up, the same mage possesses himself with channeling. They don’t have astral perception; do they now have access astral perception through the spirit?


Yes, although they can't turn it off.

QUOTE (Raizer @ Apr 1 2009, 12:24 PM) *
3. It’s clear that their PHYSICAL stats go up equal to the force of the sprit, regardless of Channeling. How many IP’s does a channeled mage get?


2.
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HappyDaze
post Apr 2 2009, 01:27 PM
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Remember that Dual Nature is an 'always on' power and thus can't be turned off during the Possession regardless of the wishes of either the Spirit or the host. Likewise, the Spirit will benefit from any 'always on' powers of the host (like Low-Light Vision for orks and up to Regeneration for Vampires).
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HappyDaze
post Apr 2 2009, 01:43 PM
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QUOTE
The possessed character will remember experiencing the astral place. This is likely quite weird.

It could be like methadone for recovering Tempo addicts...
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Raizer
post Apr 2 2009, 02:15 PM
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OK, so it seems to me that the majority belief is that the entire subject is dual natured and not just the spirit inhabiting the body?
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pbangarth
post Apr 2 2009, 04:21 PM
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That would appear to be the majority opinion.

Given that astral perception does not use any physical organ to perceive the astral plane ("Astral perception is a psychic sense", SR4A, p. 191), and the discussion of Channeling (SM, p. 54) and the Possession sidebar (SM, p. 102) argue a separation between the two minds, I don't understand how the possessed metahuman would have access to the spirit's perceptions of the astral plane unless he could do it himself, and even then I would think he would have to turn it on to see what the spirit sees in the astral plane.
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Raizer
post Apr 2 2009, 06:22 PM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 2 2009, 05:21 PM) *
That would appear to be the majority opinion.

Given that astral perception does not use any physical organ to perceive the astral plane ("Astral perception is a psychic sense", SR4A, p. 191), and the discussion of Channeling (SM, p. 54) and the Possession sidebar (SM, p. 102) argue a separation between the two minds, I don't understand how the possessed metahuman would have access to the spirit's perceptions of the astral plane unless he could do it himself, and even then I would think he would have to turn it on to see what the spirit sees in the astral plane.



See, I had originally drawn similiar conclusions. That being, that its the spirit that is dual natured, not the subject. That all channeling is doing is allowing you to control your own body, not 'be' the spirit. Hence having to use services to use powers.
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HappyDaze
post Apr 2 2009, 06:50 PM
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Raizer, there is only one being stat-wise during a possession, and it doesn't matter which is in control, they both have all of the 'always on' powers.
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Raizer
post Apr 2 2009, 07:04 PM
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Is that true? Wouldnt that same thought apply for Manifested Spirits then?.

I've always thought that a manifested spirit attacked on the astral plane used its astral stats, not its manifested stats.
So, if thats true, wouldn't a spirit that is 'manifested' through possession, doesnt it still have its Force as its stats in Astral Space when say...dealing with another astral only spirit?

So, using that line of thought, it appears to me, that the dual natured status for the possessed body is for the spirit. Because in essence, the host gets 'moved out' of control and is only aware of what is going on.

Using the same line of thinking you brought forward, you would imagine a spirit inhabiting a possessed body woudl be able to see AR, but it doesnt...because it uses its 'vision' not the hosts.
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DireRadiant
post Apr 2 2009, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE (Raizer @ Apr 2 2009, 02:04 PM) *
I've always thought that a manifested spirit attacked on the astral plane used its astral stats, not its manifested stats.


It will attack astral creatures the same way any other Dual Natured creature who cannot go astral would. There are plenty of those.

Sr4 FAQ

QUOTE (SR4FAQ)
Do dual-natured characters/critters (including assensing characters) use their Physical or astral attributes when fighting an astral opponent?

Dual-natured characters are limited by their physical bodies. In astral combat, they move at meat body speeds (use regular physical Initiative) and use their Physical attributes for any tests. They engage astral opponents, however, using Astral Combat skill (+ Willpower).

Can you clarify what skills and attributes are used in astral combat?

Attacker (dual natured or astral) Rolls: Willpower + Astral Combat
Defender (dual natured) Rolls: Reaction + Dodge (dodge)
Reaction + Astral Combat (block/parry)
Defender (astral) Rolls: Intuition + Dodge (dodge)
Intuition + Astral Combat (parry/block)
Defender (dual natured) using Full Defense: Reaction + Astral Combat/Dodge + Dodge
Defender (astral) using Full Defense: Intuition + Astral Combat/Dodge + Dodge
Damage Resistance (astral or dual natured): Willpower + Mystic Armor

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Raizer
post Apr 2 2009, 08:47 PM
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DireRadiant: So, are you are now of the belief that because the channeled possessed mage is dual natured, he now can see astrally?
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DireRadiant
post Apr 2 2009, 08:53 PM
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QUOTE (Raizer @ Apr 2 2009, 03:47 PM) *
DireRadiant: So, are you are now of the belief that because the channeled possessed mage is dual natured, he now can see astrally?


Yes
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Raizer
post Apr 2 2009, 09:06 PM
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I have to say, while I accept that dual natured facts of possession(although dont agree with it 100% that the host should now see astral, even if channeled) it creats some strange situations in astral space where a manifested spirit is a much better defender on the Astral Plane than an Astral only spirit as every spirit gets bonsues to reaction while manifested. Some quite significant.
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Mikado
post Apr 3 2009, 01:35 AM
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QUOTE (Raizer @ Apr 2 2009, 04:06 PM) *
I have to say, while I accept that dual natured facts of possession(although dont agree with it 100% that the host should now see astral, even if channeled) it creats some strange situations in astral space where a manifested spirit is a much better defender on the Astral Plane than an Astral only spirit as every spirit gets bonsues to reaction while manifested. Some quite significant.

Non-manifested spirits get 3 passes not 2.

I am of the belief that since the possessed and the possessor are now considered one entity (merged attributes, damage boxes, ect) and that entity is dual-natured the possessed would be able to see astral.
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HappyDaze
post Apr 3 2009, 12:33 PM
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QUOTE
it creats some strange situations in astral space where a manifested spirit is a much better defender on the Astral Plane than an Astral only spirit as every spirit gets bonsues to reaction while manifested. Some quite significant.

The materialized (different from manifesting which is sensory only) spirit has limitations on movement speed (much slower than the purely astral form), terrain (such as an inability to move through walls), and vulnerability to physical assault to balance out the Attribute increases.
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Raizer
post Apr 3 2009, 01:34 PM
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This is why i have been of the belief that being occupied by a spirit doesnt grant the host astral perception:

P95 SM

Regardless of how a spirit has entered a vessel, the spirit’s

mind has control of the body and the host’s mind (and

abilities)
is either temporarily subdued (via Possession) or

destroyed (via Inhabitation)—with two exceptions. A conjurer

whose body is possessed by a spirit he summoned can

retain some control by issuing mental commands to the spirit

(in a manner similar to a hacker/rigger and a subscribed

drone). In this case, the conjurer is aware of the spirit’s actions

(he still perceives through his body), but he has only

indirect control rather than direct motor control. Similarly,

an initiate conjurer can use Channeling metamagic (p. 54) to

exercise even more control when a spirit he summoned has

possessed his body


Of course one could counter that he still perceives through his body...and instead of it being just the meat body, you argue that its the dual natured vessel...and I get that argument...it just feels to me like a cheap method for a mystic adept of a possession tradition to get astral perception.
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HappyDaze
post Apr 3 2009, 01:49 PM
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QUOTE
it just feels to me like a cheap method for a mystic adept of a possession tradition to get astral perception.

Along with the good and the bad sides of Dual Nature, this isn't really too much of a 'freebie' if that's all you're worried about. Possession allows for far more abusive things than this.
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DireRadiant
post Apr 3 2009, 02:03 PM
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You end up having several rules and descriptions that you may interpret in different manners, and thus you have to make a choice as to the precedence and relative weights of the rules.

In the end though, the choice is entirely up to you.

Dual Natured Power p. 287 SR4
"A critter that is dual-natured is active in the astral plane
and can aff ect astral beings as well as physical ones. Dual-natured
creatures have the ability to perceive and interact with
the astral plane in the same way as characters using astral perception
(see Astral Perception, p. 183.)"

Possession Power p. 101 SM, Nothing in the text about the Power itself.

p. 102 SM sidebar Possession and Vessels
"When a spirit possesses a vessel, the combined
being that results is dual-natured, has
Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 289, SR4),
and boasts all of the spirit’s powers and skills.
Occasionally a possessing spirit’s nature manifests
through the vessel in an effect similar to
a shamanic mask (p. 168, SR4)."

Which is then followed by
"If the vessel is a living creature, the spirit’s
Force is added to the vessel’s Physical attributes.
While possessed, the spirit’s Mental and Special
attributes are used (which means that a possessed
technomancer cannot access Resonance),
with Initiative recalculated as normal (use the
spirit’s normal Initiative Passes). The spirit is in
full physical control of the vessel, but does not
have access to the host’s knowledge, skills, or
experience. The mind of the vessel remains in
whatever state it was when possession began;
if conscious, it becomes an impotent witness
locked inside its own body for the duration.
Possessing spirits cannot perceive or operate
AR or direct neural or cybernetic interfaces,
and do not benefit from implants, cyberware,
or nanoware that would require active control
(i.e.: a spirit can benefit from a vessel’s bone
lacing or eye replacement, but cannot activate
vision enhancements or a datajack)."

and then there is the SM p. 95 quoted above.

So
Possession Power Creates a Dual Natured single entity
Dual Natured Power gives astral Perception

The question then is what of the host mind? Unless they are a conjuror it doesn't matter since the Host mind is subdued.

So we have a conjuror who may not have Astral perception to begin with, what happens?

I think this section is most relevant p. 95 SM "In this case, the conjurer is aware of the spirit’s actions
(he still perceives through his body), but he has only indirect control rather than direct motor control."

As to the issue of it being cheap, well sure, it might be, but as it has already been pointed out, getting stuck in a host body also creates severe limitations on the spirit, it's not exactly win win.

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Kingboy
post Apr 3 2009, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE (Raizer @ Apr 3 2009, 09:34 AM) *
Of course one could counter that he still perceives through his body...and instead of it being just the meat body, you argue that its the dual natured vessel...and I get that argument...it just feels to me like a cheap method for a mystic adept of a possession tradition to get astral perception.


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) Oh yeah, cause Mystic Adepts get so many other perks in other areas of the system.

The question that I would like to know then is, assuming that the dual-natured combined entity of a Possesion Spirit and an Awakened character with Channeling can percieve the Astral with both "minds", is that a good thing? The spirit might be used to dual-perceiving things, but wouldn't the Awakened character suffer the dice penalty for acting on the physical plane while perceiving the Astral since that is not a natural condition for them?

Just curious really...I'm interested in seeing how the rest of this conversation shakes down and how it'll pertain to my Mystic Adept.
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InfinityzeN
post Apr 3 2009, 07:35 PM
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No, since they are dual natured and dual natured being don't get a penalty while using astral perception.
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