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> melee, Back to D&D, the fluff doesn't match the fight
post Apr 2 2009, 12:05 AM
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Shooting Target

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so I have had it pointed out to me that in sr4, in melee, the attacker is the only one with a chance to do damage. this is a pretty big change from sr3. and I don't like it. the BBB goes on about how "In shadow run, melee combat isn't I punch you and then you punch me. its a series of moves on both sides" well, the rules used to reflect that. but now it seems much more dungeons and dragons. you strike, I strike. Its hard enough to play a melee character in a world of guns. Anybody else have any input on this?
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post Apr 2 2009, 12:28 AM
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Running Target

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I would house rule that you can do damage even if you are defending yourself.
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post Apr 2 2009, 12:35 AM
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That used to be one of my favourite parts of SR too. Which is probably a pretty good reason for it to have been changed.

I'm reminded of the scenario Total Eclipse. Way back in the day it presented the first Toxic Spirit, and boy it was a doozy.

I had decided to experiment with the new Physical Adept rules in the Grimoire and had built a Killing Hands Adept with excellent melee skills and 2 Automatic success's.

The monstrous spirit shrugged off the massive damage from the Street Sam's, closed and engaged my Adept.

It died.

The GM cheated, fudged the Spirit onto a Moderate and because it had such a huge initiative it got to attack me again.

Stupid Spirit.

I had killed the BBEG twice and had not yet acted myself.
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Heath Robinson
post Apr 2 2009, 12:37 AM
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Suggestion: Allow Ripostes as a straight hit-generating roll without need for the maneuver.
Rationalisation: It gives you immediate (and superior) counterattack capacity and it doesn't escape the Action Economy.

Modification: Scrap the interrupt Action bit for Ripostes, allow the target their dodge/block/parry as normal.
Rationalisation: Melee is a niche that already needs a bit of a boost, and the Action Economy is part of what's keeping it back.

Notice: Giving extra attacks against failed attacks makes melee less beneficial for guards.
Comment: Like you care, right?
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post Apr 2 2009, 01:36 AM
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Immortal Elf

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The one thing my GM has done is moved melee attacks down from a complex action to a simple. Combined with the "easier to have" ripostes, counter-attacking only uses up a simple action and you could then have one simple on your next turn, instead of having it completely gone.
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post Apr 2 2009, 02:46 AM
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Great Dragon

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Melee combat still consists of a lot of moves and countermoves, the only difference being that initiative determines who is being the aggressor at any given moment.

Personally, while I don't like everything about SR4, I do prefer the change to melee. The previous opposed test had a lot of problems. People with wired reflexes and lower skills got beaten up three times as fast as their unaugmented equivalents. Initiative didn't even matter that much to a close combat specialist.

Plenty of other problems. Someone could be virtually invincible in melee - until they got attacked by eight girl scouts with pointy sticks, then the friends in melee bonuses turned them into road kill. Then Cannon Companion, and the whirling maneuver, came out, and suddenly, the friends in melee bonus barely even mattered any more. Also martial arts that could not be combined in any way - they were separate skills, and you could only use a maneuver with the martial art it was associated with. Yeah, this meant that if you had kung fu: 5 with the kick maneuver, and karate: 4, you couldn't use the kick maneuver when using karate.

In SR4, the friends in melee rules find the right balance. While I don't like the power creep of the martial arts rules, I like their implementation a lot better than the SR3 version. You can combine different styles and maneuvers. And suddenly, initiative passes matter again! The close combat specialist still gets his massive skill for both attacking and defending himself, but now it behooves him to get an initiative boost, so he can attack more often. Also, with multiple initiative passes and full defense as an interrupt option, people with boosted initiative are actually better than otherwise equal but slower opponents - as they should be. And with full defense, the superior position bonus, and a penalty for defending against attacks after the first one, it is far easier for a GM to simulate the wolf-pack tactics that enemies such as gangs or ghoul packs would use.

I absolutely love melee specialists for some reason. But I still feel that melee combat, like sniping, is more of a niche role than being good at a traditional firefight is. Melee characters who are built right can be fearsomely effective. In my opinion, they don't need house rules to be even more effective - especially ones that bring back all of the old SR3 problems. And I think melee should be a complex action - guns should be quicker, and the better option most of the time.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Apr 2 2009, 03:09 AM
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I preferred the old way, but SR4s method isn't bad. The one thing I'd change is attacking multiple targets, I'd prefer the -2 for next target mod from ranged combat over the splitting a pool. I don't want to have to build absurdo troll in order for him to close line two guys.
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post Apr 2 2009, 03:54 AM
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Right now, my sam rocks an 11P base hit, has 13/3 Initiative, and does juuust fine. Melee is his specialty-he's decent with firearms(and has used them in certain situations), but on the times he's gotten to mix it up in melee, he splattered the opposition. And i must say-as someone who hadn't really invested a lot into IPs in SR4 until this guy, WOW.

I mean, my other guys survived, but they were definitely at the disadvantage of actions, having to move close enough and then defending, etc. With Kael, I can roll up, and if he loses initiative(hey, it happens), he can interrupt for full defense. This might use 1 IP, but he has two more. He gets attacked? He rolls his 17 die full defense and then can Riposte, using another IP, and probably kills the opponent(11P + an average of 5-6 successes a roll.) He still has one more IP. If for some reason someone gets lucky and stages down, he has Finishing Blow. His +1 Kick reach is great, too.

Now, in SR3 my adept could, well, yeah...1 IP didn't matter, he just couldn't die barely in melee unless the Friends in melee was used, and even then he had ways out of that(careful positioning, his own friends in melee, etc.) But I have to say melee IS still awesome in this game after seeing my dood in action the other night. But it's true what Glyph said...it's niche. My husband's character is more of a gun guy-oh, he's killer with a knife if he needs be, but when he breaks out full-auto weapons on a gyromount he puts my character to shame easily when it comes to combat. Hell, the smuggler is basically middleground with pistols-she does well enough, but it's a secondary skill, but she can wreck one opponent easily with her Predator. I had to invest significant resources for this. But I too love the melee folks, even though it's tougher to make the ''scary as hell'' character. I can make a scary gunner in about five seconds.
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post Apr 2 2009, 08:58 AM
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QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Apr 2 2009, 05:54 AM) *
But I too love the melee folks, even though it's tougher to make the ''scary as hell'' character. I can make a scary gunner in about five seconds.

That sums it up. Yes, melee became weaker, but I like the changes, too.
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post Apr 2 2009, 09:28 AM
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Running Target

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QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Apr 1 2009, 07:37 PM) *
Rationalisation: Melee is a niche that already needs a bit of a boost, and the Action Economy is part of what's keeping it back.

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