Cyberlimb Armor, I need help with finding official Statements Options

[Medicineman]

Hello Everybody
I'm having a little Discussion and I'm looking for Official Statements that
A)Cyberlimb Armor stacks
B) Cyberlimb Armor doesn't hinder/encumber a Char like worn Armor
I Know that for a fact,but I can't find Official statements for the unbelievers (i've searched the Threads for an Hour now)
so a Link or two would be Great (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

HougH!
Medicineman

[Uli]

Since it's not mentioned in the current errata and the rules on p. 335 don't say that it A) stacks and B) doesn't encumber, I am sorry to disappoint you. But maybe someone with SR4A can help out.

[Ryu]

On armor stacking: Old Post

On treatment for encumbrance rules: Armor modifiers don´t count for armor stacking, as per encumbrance rules (pg. 148 German SR4).

[Dakka Dakka]

The Encumbrance and Armor (not) stacking rules only talk about worn armor. So unless you can take off the cyberlimb armor and put it on a coathanger, this rules are irrelevant. The same goes for bone lacing, dermal plating/sheath, orthoskin, and magic (spell or adept power) etc. Do you think the dermal deposits of trolls encumber them?

@Ryu: That must be a false translation. Unless otherwise specified armor modifiers(i.e helmets or shields) apply to both the protective value and the encumberance value.

If a character is wearing multiple armor items, add their ratings together before comparing to Body.

I remember having had this discussion with Medicineman/Medizinmann a while back on www.sr-nexus.de. Unfortunately I cannot find that thread anymore.
[Edit]Found it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) [Edit]

[Stahlseele]

*shrugs*
i told them exactly that.
let me paraphrase the answer:"quote or did not happen!"
only noticeable exception from this rule is the surge armor. for whatever reason.

[Mäx]

Armor enhancements installed on cyberlimbs are both Ballistic
and Impact, and it is cumulative with all forms of worn armor.

So there you go.

[Medicineman]

Hmmm,(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I meant that Cyberlimb Armor is cumulative by itself
having /f.E.) two Cyberlegs and two Points Armor in each means you have 4 Bal and 4 Imp
I need sth official for that

That you can add 'warearmor with worn Armor is no Problem....
But I can't find the official Statement that If your Having (f.E.) 3 Points from Orthoskin an 4 Points from said Cyberlegs and a CON of 3 that the encumberance Rules for worn Armor doesn't count for said ' warearmor
(Pointing out that the Encumberance Rules are only for worn armor is not enough for the other side)

HougH!
Medicineman

[Dakka Dakka]

(Pointing out that the Encumberance Rules are only for worn armor is not enough for the other side)

Then I can't help you.

[darthmord]

Hmmm,(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I meant that Cyberlimb Armor is cumulative by itself
having /f.E.) two Cyberlegs and two Points Armor in each means you have 4 Bal and 4 Imp
I need sth official for that

That you can add 'warearmor with worn Armor is no Problem....
But I can't find the official Statement that If your Having (f.E.) 3 Points from Orthoskin an 4 Points from said Cyberlegs and a CON of 3 that the encumberance Rules for worn Armor doesn't count for said ' warearmor
(Pointing out that the Encumberance Rules are only for worn armor is not enough for the other side)

HougH!
Medicineman

Well, from SR4A...

Cyberlimb Enhancements
Cyberlimb enhancements use up the Capacity of the cyberlimb they
enhance. There are four different types of enhancements available:
Body, Agility, Strength, or Armor enhancements. Physical Attribute
enhancements come in ratings equal to the Attribute bonus they provide.
Armor enhancements installed on cyberlimbs are both Ballistic
and Impact, and it is cumulative with all forms of worn armor.

Thus we know Cyberlimb armor is Ballistic and Impact. We also know that it's cumulative with worn armor. This also establishes that it is a separate entity from worn armor.

Armor and Encumbrance
If a character is wearing more than one piece of armor at a time, only
the highest value (for either Ballistic or Impact) applies. Note that
some armor items, like helmets and shields, provide a modifier to the
worn armor rating and so do not count as stacked armor.
Too much armor, however, can slow a character down. If either of
a character’s armor ratings exceeds his Body x 2, apply a –1 modifier
to Agility and Reaction for every 2 points (or fraction thereof ) that
his Body x 2 is exceeded. Note that this may affect Initiative as well. If
a character is wearing multiple armor items, add their ratings together
before comparing to Body.

It's rather clear to me. Only worn armor counts for encumbrance. Cyberlimb armor does NOT. It's part of the cyberlimb. Cyberlimb armor works no differently than a Troll's Dermal deposits.

[Medicineman]

It's rather clear to me. Only worn armor counts for encumbrance. Cyberlimb armor does NOT. It's part of the cyberlimb. Cyberlimb armor works no differently than a Troll's Dermal deposits.
For Me too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But I need some official Statements to make it clear to those I'm discussing with

we're dancing on the same side
Medicineman

[darthmord]

It's rather clear to me. Only worn armor counts for encumbrance. Cyberlimb armor does NOT. It's part of the cyberlimb. Cyberlimb armor works no differently than a Troll's Dermal deposits.
For Me too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But I need some official Statements to make it clear to those I'm discussing with

we're dancing on the same side
Medicineman

Your best bet would be to look for errata on the main SR4 site and search for Dev commentary here.

You may also want to PM Adam or Synner and ask them directly if you cannot find a comment by them using search.

Alternatively, you may want to rig a situation that shows why it only applies to worn armor. Work up a cyberlimb user that has armor in excess from just cyberlimbs and have him wear no armor.

[AllTheNothing]

IMO the armor of cyberlimbs should not count toward encumberance, it's part of what the body has become so it shouldn't count as armor worn (if you want to rule that the weight of the armor could slow down the wearer you can rule that the cyberlimb has to have BOTH strenght and body attributes equal or greater than the armor value or have the armor exceding the lower of the two attributes count toward the armor worn value).

A bit out of topic, has been stated anywhere if Altskin adds to the armor worn? In my opinion it shouldn't but I would like to hear how canon is supposed to be.

[Stahlseele]

isn't alt-skin only a modification of what's allready there? O.o
what kind of bonus does this alt skin confer? and how is the description worded?

[Aaron]

But I need some official Statements to make it clear to those I'm discussing with

I apologize if you made this clear earlier and I missed it but ... why?

[Stahlseele]

because the other side of this "discussion" is vehemently trying to argue the point that implanted armor does, in fact, count towards encumberance and is not ready to move from that position untill there's an official looking quote from somewhere . . preferably one they can look up somewhere else . . and then by pointing out one certain kind of wording they will still say it is the way they say it is . .

[Tyro]

The way I always saw it was: Average the cyber armor of all 6 limbs (arms, legs, torso, head). Add this to your armor value from all other sources. Does not affect encumbrance.

But I can't give you a citation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Draco18s]

The way I always saw it was: Average the cyber armor of all 6 limbs (arms, legs, torso, head). Add this to your armor value from all other sources. Does not affect encumbrance.

But I can't give you a citation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Except that we've been told that armor on one limb (say, a cyberfoot) does add to the total directly.

[Tyro]

Except that we've been told that armor on one limb (say, a cyberfoot) does add to the total directly.

Crap, I must have missed that somehow. Citation please?

[Draco18s]

It's on the forums somewhere. Or at least I recall seeing it in the last three weeks.

Edit: Found a reference
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=567285

[Stahlseele]

And that is one of the main problems in what i will call a heated discussion:
no official statements to be found on that matter anywhere somehow . .

[Mäx]

The way I always saw it was: Average the cyber armor of all 6 limbs (arms, legs, torso, head). Add this to your armor value from all other sources. Does not affect encumbrance.

But I can't give you a citation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

That makes cyber armor pretty much useless, max bonus you can get to your armor is 4 if you have full cybernetic body, with one cyber arm you can't get any as 4/6 is less then one.
At htis point you can pretty much just remove it from the book compledly.

[Tyro]

That makes cyber armor pretty much useless, max bonus you can get to your armor is 4 if you have full cybernetic body, with one cyber arm you can't get any as 4/6 is less then one.
At htis point you can pretty much just remove it from the book compledly.

Point. Though my character is getting everything but skull, so he can still get a bit of an armor boost.

[Draco18s]

While yes, one limb having cyberarmor doesn't help in that regards, it's silly to use up all the slots possible on a cyberfoot and get +4/+4 to your armor.

Two armored cyberfeet is just as good as an armored jacket!

[Tyro]

While yes, one limb having cyberarmor doesn't help in that regards, it's silly to use up all the slots possible on a cyberfoot and get +4/+4 to your armor.

Two armored cyberfeet is just as good as an armored jacket!

In SR4A, a partial limb's armor counts as half its rating. Even so, that is pretty significant.

[Stahlseele]

While yes, one limb having cyberarmor doesn't help in that regards, it's silly to use up all the slots possible on a cyberfoot and get +4/+4 to your armor.

Two armored cyberfeet is just as good as an armored jacket!

Did you pay Essence for that Jacket?
Did you have part of your Skin removed to Attach that Armor?
Is the Jacket VERY expansive and only comes off at a price?
No?
Thought so.
If external gets siginificantly better than implant, who would use implant?
Further: your +4+4 Foot is not the Problem you are having.
The Problem you are having is the Abscence of Hit-Locations and the abstract Armor/Damage-System.
Next Time you are wearing all that shiney Armor?
Yeah, guess what, Aimed shot right into your eye, no armor, bang, you are dead.