All Time Lows, The Worst Moments in SR history Options

[Bashfull]

After the cool memories people have brought up in my other thread, I wondered what people's worst moments (in terms of gaming quality) were in SR.

For me, Prime Runners was an abberation I wish I'd never bought. The two South African characters (Jonty Geldenhuys and Kepler Malan) were named after cricketers with really obscure names in South Africa, but obviously the writer thought they were typical. McBean was Howling Coyote without the gravitas. Tyrell Gates was silly.

And then Year of the Comet. It's hard enough persuading some roleplayers to play a sci-fi game with elves and orcs. Throw in SURGE and you've gone OTT. I like the idea of Halley's Comet doing weird stuff, but not that weird.

[Aristotle]

And then Year of the Comet. It's hard enough persuading some roleplayers to play a sci-fi game with elves and orcs. Throw in SURGE and you've gone OTT. I like the idea of Halley's Comet doing weird stuff, but not that weird.

This is pretty much it for me. I can't stand SURGE... it's one of the few directions I really wish the game had not gone, and it's unfortunate (imo) that it will now be included as an element of the game for all time.

[Prime Mover]

I didn't play much 3rd edition although I bought the books and kept up on things. Year of the Comet seemed so out of character for SR and surge I think could have been handled differently.

[toturi]

I liked the YotC and SURGE. Some SR books have stuff I do not use, but it is primarily because the stuff isn't particularly inspiring to me, otherwise I have not read any SR sourcebooks that I dislike.

[Ancient History]

McBean was Howling Coyote without the gravitas.

McBean was Hunter S. Thompson without most of the drugs.

I guess for me - and here I'm biased - the low points were the company handoffs, both when FASA closed their doors and the end of the FanPro days. There's always that yawning horror when you realize this might be the actual end of the game.

For the FanPro handoff, things were worse because I was in the freelancer pool by then, even if I knew less about what was going on than I do now. People were bitter and unpaid, there was no communication from the actual company so we could only guess at their motives and intentions, and there were horror stories from across the Pond...but really, it was the doldrums. No books for months on end. I'm a firm believe in the idea that it takes active support to keep a game afloat, and that kind of stagnation was the worst for me.

[Stahlseele]

Worst moments in SR History for me?
The Change from 3rd to 4th Edition. .
Not even the new Rules-System alone.
No, i mean the actual way the change
was painted to have happened . .

[GreyBrother]

Some of the Fans Reaction to changes like new Editions or Errata and Stuff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
No i don't kid, but maybe it sounds harsher than it is but so what?
The worst thing i ever encountered in Shadowrun. The one thing that has driven me to a Nerd Rage was the german change to diagnostics. Another thing... i have a deep hatelove for Technomancers rules. I wished that there would be some revising to make them more like the Otaku where, but i know that this won't happen (not because of spite, it would be much work and i can understand that) so i let it be and enjoy it as good as i can.

[Draco18s]

I think SURGE is on my list of least favorite things. I mean, I don't mind the concept (I've played IronClaw and JadeClaw for heaven's sake), it just doesn't fit with how I thought of ShadowRun. So while I accept that it's canon and RAW I personally don't pay attention to it.

[Backgammon]

SURGE also for me - a serious low point.

Also was (some) fans' reaction to the SR4 mechanic changes. I mean, this was before anyone read or even tried the new rules.

The cartoony art in SR3 was pretty bad too. Totally in the wrong direction.

[MYST1C]

My personal SR low was Brennpunkt: Matrix, the German translation of Target: Matrix. After reading is for the first time I originally registered at FanPro's forums just to complain about that totally botched book.
It had massive layout errors (wrong fonts used, font size changing in the middle of the page, etc.) an incredible amount of typos and grammar errors and, most annoying, just bad German.
You would stumble upon strange sentence structures and words on every page. It often read like a machine translation that faithfully translated each word but not necessarily the meaning. Basically, it was at best a rough initial translation that somebody forgot to then transform into actual everyday German. It looked like an absolutely amateurish work but according to the book's credits it had been done by a translator who had done much better work on earlier books.
After much complaining by me and others it was finally semi-confirmed that, as the company had "trusted the translator's previous good work", the translation had been rushed through layout and off to the printers without any proof-reading!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[Method]

I gotta add my voice to the SURGE chorus. It just doesn't fit my vision of SR.

The art has always been a struggle for me, especially gun art.

Other than that there isn't a lot that I would have done much differently.

[Adam]

Y'know, there was a lot more to YotC than SURGE. I think that discounting the entire book out of a dislike for SURGE is unfair to the book, and potentially denying yourself other interesting stuff from it. And if you hate the whole book -- hey, that's fair. But hating the whole thing for what is <25% of it ... not so fair.

[GreyBrother]

Hmmmm this reminds me of something i wanted to mention in the other thread.

[ElFenrir]

SURGE is a weird deal for me-I wasn't too into it at first, but then, after I came up with a concept that ended up really facking awesome in my head, I kinda started to like it. (It was a retool of an old idea I had in SR3-the Demon Sam, with his Kid Stealth legs, claws, increases, horns, fangs, and the like, built with cyber.) After I built him via SURGE and realized that all of the flavor and the fairly gritty but still mangaesque feel was still there, I didn't think that SURGE automatically meant a parading freakshow of pink-furred penguin people.(Okay, so a 2.5 meter tall demon-elf who tramples enemies for his signature isn't exactly normal and certainly not for an everyday game...but...eh. I could have done it with cyber anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ) It's not for every game or every table, and I don't even like to use it all the time, but used for certain concepts once in awhile, or in bits and pieces it can be a lot of fun.

For me? I dunno what my low point is. I'd have to really think about it. But I can kinda agree knocking a whole book for one section might be a bit harsh. I wasn't sure what my aversion to SURGE was at first; I think it was just due to what I saw it being used for (90% catgirls, 5% catboys and 5% other. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ) I suppose with anything, once you try something and realize ''hey, this is kinda cool after all'' one can warm up to it.

[Method]

Speaking for myself at least, I was not discounting the entire YOTC book. I happen to like certain elements, particularly the probe race which in my game was the impetus for a new space age. And shedim are one of my favorite nasties. I just particularly don't enjoy SURGE is all.

{edit}: and for the record I have never disallowed a player from designing a SURGED character. I don't feel it is my role as the GM to impose my tastes on others.

[Draco18s]

I suppose with anything, once you try something and realize ''hey, this is kinda cool after all'' one can warm up to it.

I haven't discounted ever building a SURGE character, it's just not ShadowRun for me.

[ElFenrir]

Like anything, it can be used in different ways. SURGE could indeed be used for a background piece explaining things; in the case of my elf, he simply could not get a job in any sort of normal society after changing into that...''thing'' which is what some folks might say, while others embraced his new look; an underground death-metal club might well be happy to hire him as a bouncer. The guy who suddenly sprouts quills all over his body is going to probably get ''talked to and with regret, let go'' from his current office job and forced to do work that doesn't mind a guy with quills. They then form their own little groups, much like many metas did; some of these guys are the metahumans of the metahumans in some ways. They might shadowrun because it's one of the few options left to them. Where before, it was color, then moved onto metas/humans, now even branches off and becomes ''who cares if the guy next to you has hands bigger than your head when the guy next to HIM looks like something out of the 2012 manga-adaptation of Dante's Inferno...WITHOUT cybermods?'' Especially with the general rarity of SURGED people compared to even metahumans.

It's pretty interesting, not wanting to get too off track, but how SURGE is usually a bit more shunned(by the players), than someone wishing to do cyber or bio body-mods. Now, SR has always been a mix of machine and magic. since day one. This is simply a case of what happens when magic goes awry(and it's only one of the things. Hell, paracritters came about long before SURGE.) Hell, even today people get body-mods to make themselves look like cat people(see the Engima's wife (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ), and all kinds of odd things. What's even more jarring with the SURGE is that some of these people didn't choose to be like this, unlike the guy down the street with his fox-demon cybermods.

Again, though, I can kinda see where some folks might find it a bit too odd even for them. Biomods are one thing, but actual transformation might be another. and squinting at it, it does add some changes into the mix that might just blow things a bit more out of proportion for some and give the game a different ''feel'', even though it's always mixed magic and machine.

[Glyph]

I've never gotten the "It's not Shadowrun" attitude towards SURGE. The whole premise of the game was magic causing people and animals to mutate and assume a wide variety of fantastical forms. SURGE is just the extreme, more random end of that. I don't have YOTC myself, but I got the impression that SURGE was something you rolled - if that's the case, then I much prefer the Runner's Companion version. I play a build point game so that I can craft a character the way I want that character to be - I would never play a SURGEling where I randomly rolled for SURGE traits, or where the GM insisted on picking out the negative qualities. If I wanted that, I would play Gamma World.


To me, fluff-wise, the overpowered immortal elves and great dragons, as implemented, were one of Shadowrun's all-time lows. I have no problem with them being masterminds in the shadows and personally powerful. But they were presented as statless, unbeatable beings. I could see a great dragon taking on a passenger jet, or a team of experienced runners, and coming out on top more often than not. But leveling major cities? Hell no. I'm glad SR4 has greatly de-emphasized IE's and given great dragons actual stats. I haven't read Emergence, but if the fluff has been accurately reported (technomancers suddenly become social pariahs who get kidnapped and experimented on, attacked by angry mobs, etc.), then I would call that a very low point, too.

Crunch-wise, I found the original (pre-errata) mnemonic enhancer in SR3 overpowered. Grounding through foci or spirits was also broken, since it gave a tactically-minded mage ways to attack physical opponents while safely in the astral plane. I find empathy software broken, and hope they fix it soon. And I am glad that the ludicrous revised rules for combat spell Drain have been relegated to the optional rule dustbin.

[Tyro]

I like Surge. Not enough people saying it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

For me, it was Unwired. They had a chance to fix the Matrix and blew it.

[Ryu]

For me it was the (fortunately only borrowed) "Feind meines Feindes" (Loose Alliances). A spellchecker could have found many of the errors. A painful read, despite the great content.

[Prime Mover]

Y'know, there was a lot more to YotC than SURGE. I think that discounting the entire book out of a dislike for SURGE is unfair to the book, and potentially denying yourself other interesting stuff from it. And if you hate the whole book -- hey, that's fair. But hating the whole thing for what is <25% of it ... not so fair.

Ok so YotC wasn't a bad book I guess I was just underwelhmed by the satelite storyline that seemed to end with a whimper rather then a bang. I don't discount surge It just felt out of place for me and perhaps colored my recollection of YotC which really did have some other great fluff.

[knasser]

President Dunklezahn

I liked him when he was a dragon. A dragon savvy enough to secure a large cut of the profits from initial interviews with him while he was still adjusting to a world with cameras and mass media. I disliked him as a potential president (how much suspension of disbelief am I being asked for by this game?) and I liked him least of all as a DMPC saving mankind.

Technomancers

Regardless of any game balance, they, by fluff, render regular Hackers obsolete. Don't like them and they smell of magic.

Other than that? The callous and off-hand destruction of Tehran in the fluff. That's about it. For the most part I've liked Shadowrun. I missed YoTC so have no strong opinion on SURGE. Artwork in Runners Companion was a bit embarrassing.

K.

[Dream79]

I liked YoTC over all, and although I don't dislike SURGE itself but the over the top over blown fluff in the book kinda ruined it for me. So I would just chalk it up to bad presentation myself.

[ravensmuse]

As I said in the other thread, I'm in love with SURGE. I liked how it was presented, how it was put forth, and the rules. The explanation even makes sense; either magic is trigging genes that have either been broken in sequence or screwed up over millenia from pollution, drugs, or whatever, or they were partial awakenings that sprung from races that either haven't popped out fully or don't exist any more. Not that gamebreaking to me.

The only real negative I can think of is listening to the endless complaints about rules editions. Gamers truly are one of the most conservative groups of people ever.

[the_real_elwood]

I really hate how lots of the SR4 artwork is taken from older sourcebooks (especially in Arsenal). The resolution of a lot of the samples is different, and the art style is different too. I really wish they'd either used all of the old artwork from one source, or just gotten a new artist to redo everything they wanted in the book. That lack of consistency just slays me sometimes.